* This post has not been updated in a long while. Will get around to it sooner or later.
- ITSHOMETOME'S attempt at a RESIDUAL LAND VALUATION HERE adopting the methodology used in the 2 formal RLVs handed in at the STB in round 1 and an informal RLV.
- A comparative analysis on Ex-HUDC collective sales / New Developements vis a vis GLS / New Developments.
Cutting to the chase ...when developers buy land through GLS or a collective sale they already know the size of site, plot ratio and Max GFA allowable. The question is, what percentage of the projected total sales proceeds would cover the initial cost of the land? In other words, how much are they willing to fork out for 99yr land to leave themselves a satisfactory profit margin?
Looking at the data this way, we do not need to worry about construction cost, number of units, even location etc, as the macro numbers are enough - how developers divvy it up is their business. But whatever they do with the GFA, they would have factored in the land cost at the offset.
We can look to recent government land sales (HDB and URA) and their new developments to see what the market trend is here. We can then compare that to our en blocs of interest (ex-HUDC estates) and see how they stack up in comparison.
- Developers are happy to spend up to 50% of the total projected sales price on buying the land; though it seems the comfortable level is around 35-44%
- As expected, Farrer Court was the only ex-HUDC en bloc to be sold within the market range (indeed at the high end to their credit). But these figures might change as not many units in D'Leedon have been sold to date. The same goes for Gillman Heights - it looks respectable now - but I hasten to add that the sales at The Interlace have been very poor and so the projected sales proceeds may indeed be higher when more caveats are lodged and more data is accumulated. The other En blocs were clearly undersold - the developers only had to sell approx 25 -27% of their GFA to cover the initial en bloc price, so more profit for them in the long run. Their new developments are almost sold out so the data is solid.
Serious,ah? Did not hear it. You no Benedict Arnold.
ReplyDeleteOh no, NOT $1.2m please. The price should be a minimum of $1.5m per unit. The Minton and Waterfront Gold are now going for 1000psf on average. Lakefront Residences is also going for that price.So our RP should be $1.5m.
ReplyDeleteNew units in GEYLANG is going for $1,200psf!!!
ReplyDeleteSee Straits Times:
Also coming up is La Fleur, a 'shoebox' development in Geylang, which is expected to hold a preview today. All the 58 units are one-bedders, with sizes ranging from 409 sq ft to 646 sq ft. Prices start at an estimated $490,000 - or roughly $1,200 psf - based on marketing material obtained by The Straits Times.
$1.2m? Never ! works out to be abt $700psf ! What can we buy at this price as replacement? For our land size, location, close proximity to round market & food centres, in between 2 town centres we definitely have to ask for higher price. Even $1.5m is too low.
ReplyDeleteNot 1.5m please. Should be 1.88m/unit. Need to factor in the rise in price of property and this number has a prosperous ring to it.
ReplyDelete1.9m minimum if not do not sell.
ReplyDelete$1.5m per unit is based on WF Gold selling at $1000psf on avg. At $1.5m per unit, we are effectively selling our place at abt $420psf/pr. Add $250psf for construction cost, abt $200 psf for DC and DP,and abt $130psf for developer's profit margin. If the price breaks beyond $1000psf, yes, we shd ask for higher.
ReplyDeleteTC must be priced based on location, new developments in Tampines, like international schools, MRT, town hub etc. Just like what the Holland Towers are doing:
ReplyDeleteThe MA, Jones Lang LaSalle, Ms Hoh, who believes Holland Tower should attract a maximum of five bids, added: “This site will still draw interest from small and mid-sized developers who
are confident of the serenity and exclusivity
of the area.”
- The sell point it serenity and exclusivity.
TC has many sell points too!
Don't worry about developers. they will know how to squeeze 1200 psf from TC. We just need to make sure we get our timing right, and get developers fighting tooth and nail for our gem.
ReplyDeleteOf course we want to have highest possible price but also not to overprice ourselves as to waste everyone's time. We need SC who have have the integrity and market knowledge and agents who act solely in our interest and not just to close the deal quickly to collect commission.
ReplyDeleteAgents are bound by CEA rules to act in the interest of the party who pay them commission which are TC owners. They are not allow to dual represent (both sellers and purchasers). They need to be professional and knowledgeable and must do a detail market survey and provide updated and accurate information to SC to enable them to make a comparative analysis an thereby an informed decision when negotiating with developers.
1.dear, dear ,dear. Since when CEA covers enbloc sales matters? Enbloc, project marketing and overseas properties are excluded from CEA's jurisdiction.
ReplyDelete2. Without knowledge of comparative prices but to brush away with - that developers know how to squeeze 1200psf from TC etc would not do us any good. Might as well anyhow hantum $10m per unit? How was the figures derived? We are NOT selling individually BUT collectively as an estate, so some basic knowledge of what entail selling of land per se is required. It is NOT about how much an individual unit gets but the total wholesome figure such as $850m and its distributing formula accepted by at least 80% of owners to sell to a single or joint developer and endorsed by the authority (STB, and the courts). Its proceeds are then divided that each unit gets the amount (eg $1.5m for $850m)according to the CSA. While we can ask for the heaven, we need to be realistic to the market prices in this area. CAPITALAND got stuck with D-Leedon(formerly Farrer Court)when they paid a hefty $1.3b for it. They have to hold back development until recently when the market price finally caught up. Lucky for them. The nearest new development for a good bench mark for us, WF Gold languishes at $1000psf averagely and we hope that the market continues upwards and if it reaches $1200psf, we should go for $2m per unit in TC, assuming that DC/DP and construction cost remain constant. The Govt will likely to increase the DC(for enhancement) and DP(for lease top-up to 99yrs) in March and Sept this year. We will be done for if the Govt hikes the DC by 20%. As of now, to sell at end-price of $1000psf, the most developers will pay us, is about $420psf/pr or $1.5m per unit after factoring in the DC, DP, marketing and construction cost. Keep our fingers crossed that comes March and Sept, that the Govt does not hike the DC and DP which will definitely impact our RP.
I think you missed the point. Its true CEA do not have jurisdiction over enbloc sales per se.
ReplyDeleteBut we are talking about integrity, code of conduct & ethic of CEA registered agents who handle TC enbloc sales and not about enbloc contractual matters. If the agents or agencies are not registered with CEA they would not be allowed to handle real estate sales in the first place. So long as they are CEA registered agents, they are bound by the rules, code or conduct of CEA. Likewise are the lawyers, valuers or any professionals whom we engage have to conduct themselves professionally and act in our interest. We are their clients.
CEA may not have the right to get involved or have any jurisdiction on enbloc sales but if we find our appointed agents' conduct are questionable and not acting in our interest, we have the right to complain to CEA and they will take actions against them. Else, why would we need agents and pay them so high commission? Might as well just deal direct with developers. I certainly do not wish to have the last enbloc agents to handle our enbloc this time round, do you?
I expect our appointed agents this time conduct themselves professionally, do a proper market survey and advise the SC from professionals' point of view since SC members are just ordinary folks like you and me who are not trained in real estate matters or keep tract of latest property market.
So far, the suggestions of price range from 1.2m to 1.9M. Rightfully its the agents' job to advise us the right price to sell. They are the 'right hand man' of the SC and if they interested to be our agents, should work alongside with the SC right from the start.
"It is not how much individual unit get...."
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree that selling enbloc unlocks value of our land, it is how much the individuall get that determines my decision to sell or not.
The latest transaction ($930,000) of TC from URA:
ReplyDeleteTAMPINES COURT TAMPINES STREET 11 Condominium 1 930,000 1,658 Strata 561 Jan-11
Regards
great! hype up the enbloc. i am sure it will go above 1m. without the hype, it may go back to below 900k. let the enbloc continue...
ReplyDeleteLatest transaction at 930k.
ReplyDeleteThe seller must be desperate to sell at such low price. Individual units of TC should sell at $1.1-1.2m to leverage on enbloc price of $1.5m. The premium ranges from 20% to 50% for enbloc over individual prices. We are still far from the mark.
I hope this website can reach out and educate our people to value what we have instead of throwing it away on the CHEAP.
"To buy when others are despondently selling and to sell when others are greedily buying requires the greatest fortitude and pays the greatest reward." - Sir John Templeton.
ReplyDeleteFormer TC Owner.
Even at 1.4M we can not buy a reasonably decent condo in this area. We should go for at least 1.6M to get a substitute.
ReplyDelete1.7m minimum, if not then 1 for 1 of the same size for those who want to stay. If not of the same size then difference in size to be paid based on the enbloc price.
ReplyDeleteThose who talk of 1 for 1 replacement, please reflect on this.
ReplyDeleteDont talk as if a potential buyer is desperate for your lot. In fact we are now talking of enbloc, means we(requires more than 80% of us) WANT TO SELL. The buyers are NOT BEGGING US TO SELL. We do not know even if there is anyone keen to buy our place or not.Few days ago,TULIP Garden receives NO BID for its tender when its neighbour, Farrer Court(today D-Leedon) broke records for fetching $2.2 to $2.4 per unit two years ago. Stop talking as if SOMEONE OUT THERE IS MAKING AN OFFER.
Factor this: that our estate is already 26 years old and that many of our structures are old and giving in. To insist 1 for 1 replacement means exchange everything brand new ( new home and new estate with modern amenities , swim-pool etc) and new lease of 99-yrs again for your old soon-to-be-falling apart home and estate at the same size? Just in exchange for a hidden gold mine( worth about 900,000 sf additional built-up areas?). Do your sums please. If it means accepting about 1300-1400 sf new apartment, based on my calculations, you should be quite happy to exchange it. Otherwise,dont stop at $1.7m per unit but go for $10m and see what happen.
Why not 20m to the person who posted the above. If there are potential buyers then good. Let us see what is being offered. Having said that one must look at options avaliable for residents who intend staying put and not to brush off any suggestions that may benefit them.
ReplyDeleteMen by nature are greedy 'animals'. Give them more, they want even more. Wise man would know how to strike a balance and believe in win-win situation for both parties. So long as bid is within valuation price range, we should consider. Else don't waste everyone's time. Let's just stay put.
ReplyDeleteI for one have no hurry to sell but would not also allow good opportunity to go to waste. I think based on today's condo market prices in this location, if we can get 1.7M or above, its a fair value. We can get reasonably good replacement within this location.
second posting..
ReplyDeletei agree.. at least 1.7mil. That sum would be a good figure to get somewhere comparative in size.
My toilet ceiling is crackling up.. but other then that, TPC is still a lovely place to be in.
anything less than 1.7, i wouldn't consider. i'll vote in - NO -
ok, great. let's go at 1.7m. sc, hear this n get the ma to find a developer willing to pay this price. let's go! Hype it up.
ReplyDeleteBtw, there is no use ranting and raving... Only make u look like an irrational troublemaker. when u talk rationally and stop insulting fellow residents, more residents may listen to u. winning over the human heart is on key sucess factor for enbloc or non-enbloc.
Cheers !
You're right... sometimes I just lose it!
ReplyDeleteI will go back to being my rational self :)
This blog should be changed from Tampines Court Enbloc to Tampines Court Hong Pow ToTo... Wishing all a Happy Chinese New Year.... HUAT AH!!!...
ReplyDeleteThere were two URA land sales in year 2010 in Tampines/Simei area which provide good benchmark for the land value of TC.
ReplyDeleteThe data will prevent SC from underselling TC.
1. WaterView Site: 8 bids, Result - $421 psf/ppr.
$421 psf/ppr will translated TC's land value to $827,702,419 = $1.47m per unit(702,157sf * 2.8 * $421 psf/ppr)
2. Simei plot opps Eastpoint Mall - 18 bids, Result - $523 psf/ppr.
$523 psf/ppr will translated TC's land value to $1,028,238,710 = $1.83m per unit (702,157sf * 2.8 * $523 psf/ppr)
Hence, $1.47m to $1.83m (may include DC/DP) is a fair estimation of TC land value in year 2010.
URA's Release of 4th quarter 2010 real estate statistics on 28 Jan 2011 revealed that prices of private residential properties increased by 2.7% in the 4th Quarter 2010 and 17.6% for the whole of 2010.
With the latest round of Government measures in Jan 2011, the prices increases may be slower in year 2011 and 2012 but the increases should be projected into land value.
With the above data, $1.7m is a fair minimum RP for TC tender in year 2011.
Please note that there were 8 bids and 18 bids received for Tampines and Simei sites respectively in year 2010 URA tender.
Please recalled the PA (Round 1) said in the STB Hearing about TC tender result with only 1 bid received in year 2008:
- "we launched a tender, okay, we launched a tender to gather feedback ..."
- "The market speak for itself..."
(Note: In the same year 2008, WaterView site also received 1 bid in URA tender.)
The same PA started to advertise all positive points about TC when they were selling individual unit after Round 1.
This is a good reference for us to access the commitment and marketing skills of PA selected for Round 2.
When PA starts to talk bad about TC, we should know they are trying to sell low and get their commission.
Regards
So far, all the RP opinions came from owners of TC.
ReplyDeleteLet's test how good and knowledgeable the agents are in representing us. Let's hear from them on how much the RP should be. What we want are solid research data and not just figures pick from the air. If we have to do all the work, why would we need agents.
Any agents here who are interesting to represent us please share your opinions. If you want to represent us, this is the opportunity to 'sell yourself' here. Of course agents are themselves also have different opinions, by all means share your thoughts with due respect for each other.
We would appreciate your name and which agencies you are representing (optional). If you decided to stay anonymous its up to you but if we know who you are, your selling efforts are worth it for you.
Of course, the final jurisdiction & decision on appointment of agent(s) should be in the hand of owners and not SC.
erm... i believe developer prefer to purchase from URA than enbloc developments... the time for enbloc sales to process including STB and high court (?) will take 4-9 months longer than purchasing from the govt. the longer the timeframe, the greater the exposure to risk especially land with 99yr lease.
ReplyDeleteWith the govt land sales going on, developers can pick and choose which options give them the maximum profit and least risk.
There are pros and cons to both GLS and en bloc sites. The former may be faster and without too much hassle - but they are on mostly in less favourable locations.
ReplyDeleteWith the latter, the developer only comes in at the end - when most of the hassle is over. 4 to 9 months isn't long in a developer's time frame when there is profit to be made. They have 6 years to develop the site and more if they want to extend. The locations are better - how else can you find 2 million square feet in the heart of Tampines Town?.. it's worth the wait.
Waterfront Isle asking $920psf...(part 4 of waterfront series)
ReplyDeleteIf we can't get roughly $1000psf or 1.7mil, how can we get a comparative apartment in terms of geographic location and size?
You may argue our Tampines Court is old, but if we go enbloc, we are selling not only our apartments but also the available land too.
Say no to 1.2mil
I also heard from my neighbour that someone is trying to advocate 1.2M. Ok, everyone here knows that 1.2M is out of the way. Its either at least 1.7M or no deal (ie if property price don't escalate further).
ReplyDeleteThe problem is how to get supports from the rest of the owner not to sell at 1.2M. Either we promote this website to the rest of the owners so they can make more informed decision or we start a campaign to reach out to the owners not to agree on 1.2M.
The challenge is how to go about it.
he developer only comes in at the end but the purchase price is set up front. Remeber 1996, there was a long lull of a couple of years before proced move up again.
ReplyDeleteDevelopers will be mindful of such cycles and they well know how government feel about the prices of property now.
if GLS provides less risk and potential higer return, they will pick such opportunity regardless how attractive TC land is but the price is not attractive.
The table of ex-HUDC refers.
ReplyDeletePlease do not use Waterfront Isle's(WI) figure of $920psf, it is still too early as it is only the initial batch. Only when it is 3/4 sold, that would it be truly representional. I have no disagreement with the other 3 Waterfronts. Your table shows that the second and third developments are already going beyond 1000psf,-1002 and 1043psf. Basing on Govt and analysts estimates that prices may slow down to about 5-10% as against 2010's 17.6%, it is still an increase. Even if it is only 5%, it will be 1095psf( 1043+52), close to the estimate of your 1100psf in the table which justifies $1.7m for us. I hope TC shd not forget my earlier post that when I said that if the price hits $1200psf in comparative areas, we shd go for $2m each unit. Do not stay fix at a figure even at $1.7m, but be flexible as the whole enbloc process may take 6-12 mths or more and the possibility of further hikes may happen. To guarantee ourselves, not to be caught 'offside' by price-market gap of a fix RP which may be one year outdated when we finally get our money, we need to have a reaffirmation EOGM right immediately after tender close.
My tables are not fixed, obviously, the estates are not sold out. Even Waterfront Waves does not have complete figures as 50 caveats have not been lodged and so I cannot know the end figure. (See my more up-to-date tables under Developer Windfall, where I keep tabs on the moving figures). I shall add another column, 'high/low', as well as the running average.
ReplyDeleteW.Isle has no caveats lodged as yet - only the average price stated in the newspaper.
mm.... i am very surprised by the high valuation that everybody is proposing. Whilst I am happy as an investor for such high valuations, it seems a stretch. Using the latest sale price is a big mistake because we are probably at the peak of the property market and doubling that to 1.8m is assuming that the market will continue to accelerate at a fast pace this year. And this seems unlikely with all the measures, and even if it does in the coming quarter, be assured the govt will come up with another round of measures to dampen the mkt.
ReplyDeleteOne of the authors seems to say that only Farrer court is the fair value, but speak to all property experts and you will realise that that transaction was a one off and very difficult to pull off again. Thats why Laguna Park, despite being in a good location, has failed several times because they set the price so high.
There is only a fair price if there is a buyer. Your price may be fair to you but if no buyer is willing to pay for it, then it is of no use.
If we miss this peak market to sell it, the fair price may be $900k (or even lower) when the next recession comes.
As an investor - you should not be telling people who own only one home to sell and hope for a recession to kick in at the time you collect your sales proceeds. Most of T-Courters are not investors - these are our homes which must be replaced 6 months after the sale.
ReplyDeleteNo one can predict the future and it is NOT WISE to bet on a recession. One should always cover the worst case scenario which is property prices will continue to rise.
We do not care if there are no takers - we can still happily live on here, we would have lost nothing.
Investors, on the other hand, need to sell and worry about there being no takers so are happy to lower others' expectations.
The game is rigged.
The big developers wait on the sidelines and hope the sellers will panic and lower their prices.
Laguna only has to hold out - look at the selling price of Silversea: over $2000psf!!!! - Laguna's future psf will be through the roof!
The age of the estate will not be a big factor - the lease top-up is a small fraction of the overall cost.
Tampines Courters are in no rush to sell. We may have a team of en bloc raiders in the estate - but us ordinary folk are going to fight back.
I agree with itshometome. I don't have to sell my home which I have being living here for more than 20 yrs, if price is not right. I don't give the hood of what the investors/flippers, developers or agents opinions. Their objective is to press the price down so they can close deal quickly. Let us be proud owners of TC, where else can you get such a good location, size of land in the nearby vicinity. Anybody wants our home must be willing to pay for it or NO DEAL ! Don't let this opportunists pyscho us and make us desperados as to sell our lovely home to them cheap. United we stand !
ReplyDeleteTo: The Investor
ReplyDeleteAppreciate it very much if you could share with us what is your minimum RP (if $1.7m is too high) for TC in this enbloc as you (or representative) may be in the SC.
Regards
Well said, well said. If anyone have to force me out of my home, they better pay me well. If the next General Election got an opposition candidate that promises to do away the enbloc thingy, he/she will get my vote. That's how serious I am.
ReplyDeleteDon't bother to ask RP from any investors or agents. They are only interested to take the profit and run. They would not have vested interested in TC like the rest of the owners and would tell you all kinds of negative things about TC. Don't trust them !
ReplyDeleteLet's get valuation price first and then go for highest bidders. Even then we are not oblige to sell if we don't get the price we want. Let's just keep our land if buyers are not willing to pay premium price for it.
TC piece of land is the GEM of the east! Trust me !
I am also surprised that the Investor posted above chose to ignore the fact the proposed $1.7M ($1.8M?) was derived using psf/ppr data from the URA land sales in the nearby vicinity of TC.
ReplyDeleteThe $1,7M is not simply taking the latest transaction ($900K) and double it. This is the real estimation of land value of TC using the GLS data.
Please also stop using scare tactic as our round 1 PA. You may like to read the tape transcripts of TC enbloc round 1 in this blog. What you have said there have been said by our PA round 1.
Regards
lol, if any politician says that enbloc should be out, this guy will also be oit. enbloc have allowed owners to unlock value of their property which selling on its own cannot be achieved.
ReplyDeleteInvestor or owner occupier have the same ownership rights.
one key point of a successful enbloc is the time laspe between achieving 80% and the sale completion. gillman heights delayed this and many suffered. farrer court on the other hand was short and everyone laughed to the bank.
Learn.
I think 1.7mil is appropriate as we need find replacement unit.
ReplyDeleteIf you read the Straits Times today, the Goondu Heights people all regret selling. If developer do not meet the high price, tell them come back few years later and we will price even higher...I do not worry about recession pulling price now, it is a natural process.
In fact if recession come, i will buy more cos i know the value of TC. Logical reason, inflation and land scare in Singapore... I not worried, meet the price or (deleted) and let me continue with my quality of life :>
Enbloc round one is a learning lesson for TC owners. It allow us to see the true colors of investors/agents. Enbloc round two, TC owners are much wisers.
ReplyDeleteLaguna Pk, Bedok Ct, TC & others who are smart enough to hold our lands. We are not suffering, we are laughing. We are holding the triumph cards and awaiting developers to come begging on their door cause lands in good locations are dwindling. Look how much the value of our land are escalating now. Developers need land are they are targeting prime lands and TC land is one of them and our value will continue to escalate in land scare singapore. Give us our price and we will sell, else dun waste our time !
The investors/flippers are already panicking now, that's why he posted above thinking that his old tactics will work on us again. Sorry fella, try harder... let's see who have the last laugh. lol
to those who think tc is a gem....
ReplyDeleteWhat is important to buyers is the profit margin from the investment.
It is a gem only when it is priced right for the owners and buyers.
developers will come begging for tc when there is insufficient land.
ReplyDeleteGovernment is releasing record number of land in the sub urban area and this will compete with TC. You are not district 9, 10 and 11 which is spared from the GLS.
developers will be spoilt for choice in the suburban over the next few year. There will also be huge supply coming on stream and wait for the next round of cooling measures. It is just a matter of time.
I suggest you put the enbloc on hold for 3-5 years and hope that dc does not go up too much.
But do u think tc can fetch over 900k is the enbloc is halted?
For those who don't understand the meaning of GEM. Its NOT an ordinary piece of stone. Its something valuable that I am willing to keep and hold. Those who want my GEM must be willing to pay for me to part with it. The longer I keep the GEM, the more priceless it becomes and the higher you have to pay for it later. :)
ReplyDeleteDevelopers will be spoilt for choice over the next few years. I supposed you must be living elsewhere. If you have a car I suggest you take a drive and have your eyes wide open to see how much we have left (land), if any. Stop pre-empting as though you are sure we cant sell our place for 900k if the enbloc failed. One thing for sure, you know nuts about it.
ReplyDeleteGovt release of sub urban land has nothing to do with TC. You need to compare apple-to-apple. Are there any available lands in the vicinity which is better than TC in terms of size, plot ratio, location & near round market/hawker centres, walking distance to 2 town centres which willing to enbloc cheap ? Please enlighten us. Also, by comparing D09,10,11 you are comparing out of context.
ReplyDeleteSure, we are all ready to put enbloc on hold if we don't get the price we want. No problem with us. The short term cooling measures targeting at speculators are not our concern and as we are selling collectively not individually. If you want to use scare tactics on us, please don't insult our intelligence.
If you want to be pushy, why not push the developers to meet our price ?
Try harder please.
I sometime wonder, why is there a bit of resentment again investors in this blog. Investors found a good way of investment in TC. It is their investment skills that they found value in TC units - why residents feel unhappy ?. Majority of the investor are mature people and understand the calculation of land value. They are getting good rental yield. They are not in a desperate mood to sell it. A better education of all ( barring all those who are desperate to sell - they may be investor or owner--any body...Please do not have preconceived notion that all investors are desperate and all owners want to stay in TC ) would help in gaining popularity of higher RP. I wonder, we should seek more info when would be the result of SC appointment of Valuation coming up ? How do we know what are they doing ? How do we assure that we get the right value from valure ? Can we put TC for valuation to multiple valuation firms ? Real issue is to setup right process that help to get complete visibility of the SC activities. We should know in advance what are the next timelines and dates.
ReplyDeleteenbloc raiders? how many do you think are in TC? 80% of them?
ReplyDeleteCmon, I am sure there are suffcient investors and owner-occupiers to nullify their effect. It take 80% to make an enbloc.
Let's face it:
ReplyDelete1) Investors/Flippers objectives are to cash out of their investment as soon as they feel they have make good profits so that they can re-invest in other investments.
2) Agents' objectives are to close the enbloc sale asap to collect commission.
Who is going to protect the interest of owners? There are many of us who do not want to move out. Many of our children are grown up here. We love this place and want to retire here. Where else can we get such a good location, land size and other qualities that we can't find in condos in this area? Where must we be force out of out of our home?
But we are reasonable and mature people and knows that in life, certain things are beyond our control and we have to abide by majority interest such as enbloc. If you want to force us out of our home, at least compensate us fairly so we can get reasonable replacement unit. Is that too much to ask ? Don't come and tell us that our place don't worth so much and that if we don't sell now we will lose out later and other scare tactics, blah, blah, blah.
Be reasonable and professional and we will reciprocate fairly. Be unethical and act only in your interest, we will fight to protect our home !
Who will protect the owners?
ReplyDeleteThere will be no issue as I am sure more than 50% of TC are owner occupied.
If these 50% are not happy then do not sign, and there will be no enbloc.
You have the right as an owner to state your case in the EOGM.
What is the hulabaloo about??
TC is on a piece of land just like every other development. Like the saying goes... everyone will think that they are living on a GEM.
ReplyDeleteYou guys are not on urban prime land and the tenure is not freehold. Is it really a gem?
The reality is that TC apartments are selling at one of the lowest psf in your district (even at $930,000).
Get real!
I am an investor. I respect that in no way, we should allow any of the resident's sentiment to be hurt. It should be as collaborative as possible.
ReplyDeleteTC has been the home for majority of us and we should leave it only when we get a good unlocking of value..Issue is to establish a process in SC to assure the right unlocking..
I am wondering that the valuation company should certainly be considering the suggested rational model in this blog..If they are not considering this model..how can we influence them to consider this model..
" The reality is that TC apartments are selling at one of the lowest psf in your district (even at $930,00) "
ReplyDeleteIts shows that you know little to nothing of the enbloc value potential. You must be one of the sour grade who scheme has being exposed by us. Dun act smart and make a fool of yourself. Shoo! go somewhere else and play your lego and paper money. lol
The marketing agent cannot refute the hard facts and figures taken from a government website - and ALL my figures come from the URA.
ReplyDeleteLeasehold land in our non-prime urban area is not cheap. The valuer can no longer use Waterfront View or Flamingo Valley as their points of comparison (as in Round 1) - they will have to use the up-to-date figures which show that we are definitely around $1.7 million.
Does anyone know what the timeline is like for the enbloc process? After the EOGM on 29 Jan 2011, when can we expect to hear from the CSC?
ReplyDeleteIf the valuation company can not ignore the hard facts...why are we worrying..they should come up with a figure of 1.7 million...I am wondering "Why not we get valuation done by multiple companies" to get their opinions voiced out.
ReplyDeleteDevelopers will always need Land to continue their business. Agents will always try to convince us to sell our Land cheap so they can close the deal & get their commission, even though they are suppose to act in our interest.
ReplyDeleteTC will always be a GEM! The longer we hold our GEM, the more precious it will be. We have the bargaining power. Pay our price or don't waste our time.
For the TIMELINE - go to the no.11 of Process & Pitfalls on the side bar.
ReplyDeleteA) Jan 29, 2011: SC has 12 months to get ONE signature on a CSA
B) Jan 29, 2012: Sc has 12 months to get the 80%
C) Date of 80%: SC has 12 months to make an application for sale to the STB
Maximum A+B+C = 3 years
When shall we hear from them again?
Soon, I expect.
estimated timeline -
ReplyDelete2 months to review n propose ma and solicitor
2 weeks to call for next eogm (ma and lawyer)
1 month to review n propose rp and apportionment method and csa terms
2 weeks to call for next eogm (rp, csa, apportionment)
6 month to collect 80% of the signatures
1 week to call foor owners meeting
2 month to prepare and conduct tender
2 weeks too negotiate and award tender to buyer
1 week to call for owners meeting
3-4 month for the stb process
3 month tp conclude sales process
6 month rent free period
the end
So there you have it- the maximum and minimum length of time.
ReplyDeleteA few mistakes in your list...
Suggest Potential Marketing Agents & SC to visit this website to have a feel of the owners' sentiments and get insight on RP suggestions.
ReplyDeleteBefore setting RP prices in CSA, SC should get valuation from a few valuers. Tenderers would most likely also get valuation before putting up their bids which shouldn't be very far away from ours.
If valuation is around what we want (1.7M per unit or above). I don't see why the enbloc process shouldn't be smooth sailing.
Just a reminder to marketing agents : you are getting commission from us and should work 100% in our interest. Else you are breaching the CEA professional code of conduct & ethics. SC should only engage licensed marketing agencies & agents with CEA registration numbers.
You guys are getting desperate.
ReplyDeleteAn average MA should have trained valuers in their ranks. They will not value based on your comments here. They value based on standard parameters which they will explain in their proposal.
I think it is advisable for TC to pay for an independent valuer since your trust level for MA's are low.
Re: you guys are getting desperate..
ReplyDeleteOur last MA admitted in open court that he didn't use a standard method of valuation for setting the RP, that the method he used was not based on standard parameters and that it was used as a marketing ploy to get people to sign the CSA. (see tape transcripts - his words). Even the in-house valuer told him it was wrong.
So you see, marketing agents cannot be trusted to set the RP - they take the owners for fools. Once maybe - but twice? Not a chance.
it depends who you guys appoint. You get one from the regular property company that does home sale and rental and you pay the price. It may be different if get a more established and experienced enbloc agents.
ReplyDeleteNevetheless, the new rules ensures that there is an EOGM to discuss the marketing agent.
You can air your views then.
" RE: You guys are getting desperate "
ReplyDeleteSo you want us to let our guards down and trust people like you ? Sorry fella, we are much smarter and wiser than before to trust a bunch of opportunists.
You can't even read properly. Since when did we said that valuation should be based on our comments here? We are talking about sentiments. We are saying if valuation does not meet our price, we will rather keep our GEM. If you don't have enough knowledge on enbloc, please keep the comments to yourself.
Contrary, I think you are really getting really desperate trying to use scare tactics on us. Sorry pal, Try harder again! We are ready to take you on anytime !
Its not just the experience of the agent alone we are considering. We should appoint agents who has the integrity and professionalism
ReplyDeleteto serve us.
Our SC should have knowledge of enbloc process and can handle any 'monkey business' play by the appointed agents. NO MORE such things as they say, we believe, we just signed blindly kind of nonsense. This time round, the commission is much higher than round 1. Make sure they work hard to earn it.
ha ha...i am the 'you guys are getting desperate' guy.
ReplyDeleteActually, i am not a tc owner but i get good entertainment reading how paranoid you guys are.
No need to take me on. i have no interest in tc.
all the best and stay cool.
RE: haha.. I am the 'you guys are getting desperate guys "
ReplyDeleteDon't bluff lah. If you have no interest in TC. Why you visit here so often? Of course you are not TC owner, we can easily tell that. You are possibly one of the naive agents thinking that TC owners are easy prey. You have being exposed. So back off !
One down, next ! : )
TC look ahead to 2015:
ReplyDelete2013 - if enbloc goes smoothly.
2015 - new development on the land.
This is the GEM developers will look for:
1. Near the round market
2. There will be 3 MRT stations within walking distance
3. International Schools near by
4. Singapore University of Technology And Design
5. Tampines New Town Hub.
This will be a precious land, a GEM. Don't sell lower than $1.7mil
For investors, quit your old tactics and don't panic. If en-bloc fails, rent your units to foreigners, no need to panic sell.
SC - if you want a smooth sailing en-bloc, RP > $1.7mil, do the right way and be transparent about the process, lesser resistance, faster flow.
" Re: TC look ahead to 2015 "
ReplyDeleteVery well said! For those who don't understand the meaning of "TC as a GEM " Please read and read again !
To: TC owners and investors, be proud of your GEM. Don't let go so easily at giveaway price. You will regret later !
To: Investors, Flippers and Agents - Either you are with us or stop your scare tactics. It won't work with us any more ! We have learn our lesson in enbloc round one and are much wiser, knowledgeable and smarter now.
This website need to be promoted to anyone with stake in TC to read and be well informed before making a decision. Well done itshometome !
1.7M only 1000 psf ! Are we asking too much to give up our GEM and a wonderful, wonderful piece of land! Of course not! Use your common sense & do your research, our asking price is very very reasonable. If you are not willing to pay, let's forget the enbloc. We rather keep it! Don't squeeze of us any further or we will increase our asking to $2M or more. You want this piece of GEM, don't just talk, act fast or leave us alone !
ReplyDeleteIn an enbloc, when each household gets $1.7m, it means we are selling at $485psf/pr($1.7m x 560 units divided by 196,000 sf/GFA)not including DC and DP. NOT $1.7 m equals 1000psf($1.7m divided by 1700sf) as if we are selling individually.
ReplyDelete$485psf is cheap ! Dirt cheap, is it not ? What are they complaining at?
ReplyDeleteIf we keep TC, share equally to built for condo facilities (pool/gym etc), I am confident TC would be the most popular condo in Tampines/Simei area (both sale & rental)! So we are not desperate to enbloc. If we don't get our price, let's keep it.
We are already being robbed at $485psf. We need a minimmun of $550psf!
ReplyDeleteOk, some of you are going to be happy with $1.4mil.
ReplyDeleteSome of us will be happy with $1.7mil.
So if TC RP is set at $1.4mil per unit, you'll bound to get big objection.
If we set RP at $1.7mil per unit, those who are happy at $1.4mil, should be happier. Wonder what's the problem.
Now if the $1.4mil folks thinks that $1.7mil will be to high a price to attract any tender; here's a suggestion:
Those who are happy with just $1.4mil, gets $1.4mil, those who wants $1.7mil, gets $1.7mil. You average it out the RP may hit $1.55mil- BUT
guess what, the $1.4mil folks will now become unhappy if we distribute it this way right?
The point is why then are there people trying to push down the RP to below $1.7mil?
- RP at $1.7mil will have very much lesser resistance and objections.
As to 1 for 1 exchange, what's wrong with putting this in as an option in CSA?
If someone likes the place and opts for 1 for 1 exchange, let them be. If others want to cash out, move to a landed, condo or HDB it is their choice. It's up to the developer to sell whatever price for the new estate and those who opted for 1 for 1 will have to live with it even if it is smaller.
En-bloc is a problem. Not only do you want to decide to sell your neighbour's home, you'll want to decide how much they get or where they live?
Let the lawyer & developers take care of details like cash out or 1 for 1 exchange as an option, (not mandatory), so don't panic.
Nothing is complicated for good lawyers to pen down in black & white with sellers and buyers who chooses the option. See how the Government do their SER, it can be done.
Take a vote at EOGM, see how many would like to have 1 for 1 as an option.
I have moved the comments about 1-4-1 exchange over to the 1-4-1- post where they belong.
ReplyDeleteWhen en-bloc is done with just 81% and 19% in minority, chances are that it is going to be a long drawn process. Which means that even at the end, when the sale completes and you take your money, the costs of home which you have money to buy then will be enough for the home you like.
ReplyDeleteFor those who bought TC units at >$750K, you have started to pay interests and will continue to pay your mortgages until it's sold. When you get the money, you'll find a large sum of your money had gone into paying interests, hence the gains minus all the interests, stamp duties etc, means NO windfall!
Do your sums before you think less than the $1.7mil is enough for you. Don't just look at the price you paid for your home when you purchased it, include all the interests you paid through the years... it'll surprise you!
You might just end up a just few thousand dollars richer for all the trouble you go through.
What you need to consider is the money you put in all these years into this home + gains.
And not what I can sell now + gains, because what you can sell now as a single unit, may be less than what you have paid in all these years!!!
Remember, once you get the money, you'll have to quickly go buy a home, renovate and move out, usually in six months. If the sale price is not very good, and home prices has gone up, then, "so sad, too bad" is all the developer will say to you.
But if the sale price is high, and you have the $, then getting a home, renovating and moving in should be ok.
Resident owners think carefully, you'll have to face all these issues, make sure you have enough money to move!
The investors/fippers don't have these problems! So they rush you to sell at a low price for their quick buck!
There may be another property cooling measures coming up. Beware of agents & flippers using this news to press our price down. Stand firm and do not panic.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally there is another news that SER may slow down because of lack of suitable land. This confirms that land is indeed scarce in singapore and we have the bargaining power.
TC brothers & sisters, let's be firm and hold on to our land till someone is willing to pay our price.
yes! We will wait 5 years and it will be 2m. wait with me ok?
ReplyDeleteok, forget 1.7m, we go for >2m. let's hold out for another 5 years. can anyone tell me why we should enbloc now? Prices will surely go up. why now, esp with the cooling measures and the anticipated supply coming.
ReplyDeleteWait for 5 yrs to get extra 300K not worth it.
ReplyDeleteI will make more profit if I sell now @ 1.7m or more and reinvest in other old properties with enbloc potential.
I don't mind waiting another 5 years and target 2mil.
ReplyDeleteBut unfortunately, the process has begun.
If you can succeed convincing > 21% of TC to wait well and good! Otherwise, we just have to ensure that this en-bloc is properly done to get the best value which is now >$1.7mil and going up.
TC be firm about keeping the price >$1.7mil
MBT said the measures are meant to cool the market NOT crash it, it was to prevent a bubble. The government cannot introduce measures to push prices down, they can only cool it, many Singaporeans who had bought HDB last year will then be caught in 'paper loss' value of their HDB and then the Government will have another headache.
Land in Singapore is scarce, it'll continue to be in upward trend, just slower. The Government wants more babies, means more homes are needed. - Basic economic lesson, demand is there, supply is dwindling, prices will continue upwards, just slower.
This is good for us, it means, if we get >$1.7mil, and since the rate of increase is slowing, we'll be able to afford some homes in the future.
The flippers already have other homes, they don't need >$1.7mil, so they are going to try and sell TC cheap! They need some cash to pay their other properties to make themselves richer while you become poorer. When they bought their unit, they don't renovate, they simply rent it out. TC owners, you renovated your homes, you have memories here that they don't.
So DON'T Be fooled again! It has to be >$1.7mil or no sale.
In Parliament yesterday:
ReplyDeleteThe latest round of property cooling measures in January aimed to rein in speculators and pre-empt a bubble. Discouraging genuine homebuyers or causing prices to crash was not the intention.
Overall, the Ministry of National Development expects Singapore's property market to remain buoyant amid strong economic growth, low interest rates and excess liquidity.
Mr Mah said: "We do not wish to see prices shooting up so fast as to be unsupportable by the fundamentals of the market. At the same time, we also do not want to see a lot of short-term speculations in the market.
"So our measures in January were pre-emptive in nature because we wanted to act before a bubble forms. It was calibrated so as to cool the market and not to price the market. It was very targeted at the short-term speculators and not at genuine homebuyers. So if we meet these objectives, then I think the measures would have done their job."
MND says the property market remains 'buoyant', this means 2 good news for TC:
1. We can push the RP > $1.7mil, prices will continue in the upward trend.
2. It means when the sale completes, we can still afford a similar home, so long as we stay firm, no sale unless greater that $1.7mil is achieved.
You can implement as many cooling measures as you want but you can never destroy land. It will always be there especially for GEM like TC.
ReplyDeleteI m confident that smart TC owners will not succumb to "doomsday talks" of agents and flippers. If they want to sell cheap, lets combine resources and pick it up from them and ask them go fly kite ! Shoo ! Good riddance !
Simei Green with full condo facilities is selling @ 581psf. TC without facilities and much older is already selling @ 561 psf (930K). If we can't embloc, then just built facilities, we can beat nearby condo anytime !
ReplyDeleteWho said TC is not a gem ?
TC is a gem because it's my home. Sharing this with all of you. :)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbLaFBDnxrc
I believe you all have received copy of last EGM meetings. The names of the SC committee are out. Any one of them you know and what's your opinion on them ?
ReplyDeletePut your comments on the SALE COMMITTEE post - and no mentions of name please.
ReplyDeleteRemember opinions are okay, accusations are not.
OK, Reality check...
ReplyDelete@561psf, TC is selling at one of the lowest psf for a condo unit in the country.
At the 450-550psfppr land rate (that many are proposing for the enbloc) it will be the lowest enbloc price compared to successful enblocs in 2010.
" Ok Reality Check ... "
ReplyDeleteAnd your point is ?
Are we selling too cheap @ 1.7M ?
Shall we increase our asking RP ?
Looking at how En-bloc 2 in TC is going on, shows one thing, investors / flippers saw the opportunity to cut a quick buck in TC based on en-bloc 1 in TC.
ReplyDeleteBecause a lot of owners are either not educated about en-bloc or Simply Bo-Chap (SBC).
When investor sees such an environment, it's very difficult to avoid the temptation to plunder the homes of such to their own benefit regardless of real owners.
I am not surprised at the number of Property Agents in the SC. TC is a gem, but unguarded with owners saying, "please come and rob me!"
This is witnessed in the EOGM, for even wanting to know who the SC members are and if they have conflict of interests was frowned at - even though the LAW requires it.
You see, some TC owners would skip the law and say to the SC, 'I don't care who you are, what you do, just sell my home as you like'.
Property Agents will not in-fight. They will co-broke, it is "think win-win" - Stephen Covey's Habit number 4. "Got money grab it together." Did you not read recently how property agents co-broke to sell and buy homes?
The only defense we have to protect our own home and investment is to be educated about the law and process of en-bloc and not be led like sheep silently to the slaughter.
My point is that there are many people here calling TC a GEM when your units are selling at rock bottom psf and your propose land rate is also at rock bottom psfppr compared to 2010 enblocs.
ReplyDeleteAs to the RP, better get the valuers to propose. In my opinion, 500psfppr sound about right.
" My point is there are many people here calling TC a Gem when your units are selling at rock bottom psf..... "
ReplyDeleteGEM in is RAW form can only be appreciated by those who knows how to. Apparently you are not one of them.
In response to the first line of the post.
ReplyDelete"it's all about the VALUE OF OUR LAND"
Is it really only about the value of the land at the current market rate?
Do they take into consideration the future value of the land in the price?
Is there any provision in the law for compensation for things like community, sense of belonging, and other such things that are difficult to measure.
Sorry if these are dumb questions but I am just curious as to how the price is decided upon and what sort of room there is in the law.
This might be a poor analogy, but what I do know is that when someone meets with an accident, for example, damages can include compensation for pain, suffering and loss of lifestyle. Is there anything in the law for property that has something similar?
I of course DO NOT mean that the value of our homes is based on the value of the land! If you read deeper into my blog, I am against the en bloc overall because it is uncivilized, unethical and destroys a person's sense of home and community.
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean by 'all about the land' is that the marketing agent and SC had better not try the old trick of using the market price of an INDIVIDUAL UNIT again.
As for the Law recognizing and making compensation for the pain and suffering caused by en bloc; there is nothing. Past cases tried and failed - there is no room for sentimentality in en bloc law. They do not respect the individual, for heavens sake... the Law doesn't even respect itself!
Non-compliance of it's own rules brings no punishment. Even perjury is swept aside, it seems.
Can you fathom the absurdity of this? That here is the ONLY statute in Law that is all bark and no bite.
I have nothing against enbloc. If the old don't go, new would not come.
ReplyDeleteStrange thinking that you consider enbloc as 'uncivilized, unethical & destorys a person's sense of home and community " The fact that you are living in condo, its all about community living and not individualistic idea of your "own home".
Anyone against enbloc should buy his own freehold landed properties or land & built your own home, even then there's no guarantee that he can stay there forever as the land may be acquired by the government or landed properties within the zone & developed by same developer may still subject to enbloc.
I guess the perfect solution to your idea is to buy your own island and live in your own world, away from community living. I think places like indonesia may have small islands for sale. Good luck !
I am living within my own home within a community. I bought before en bloc became law when private property rights were sacrosanct - except in cases of compulsory government acquisition for public use.
ReplyDeleteOne cannot disagree when land is acquired by the Government for the public good such as a hospital, MRT line. Even landed freehold properties are not exempt from this.
But one should strongly disagree when no public good is served; when it is purely for profit, when it serves only to enrich neighbours, developers and opportunists.
I prefer to stay and fight for what is right.
Of course, of course, you have your rights so have others. Your thinking are no difference from the flippers and investors, "ME & MY RIGHT COME FIRST the rest of the community I couldn't be bother".
ReplyDeleteAs I said, so long you chose your residence in community living (condos), your rights has already being diminished whether you like it or not, unless you own more than 80% share of TC.
As I said, buying a piece of land and built your own home may be the best choice for you.
if the community decides to sell, then, as part of the community, you have to abide.
ReplyDeleteYou are confusing community living with communism.
ReplyDeleteIn a strata title property such as Tampines Court, it is the common area which is governed by the majoritism principle and owners remain responsible for the maintenance of their own individual units. For example, if your toilet is leaking it is your duty to fix it, not the MCST. Your unit is not part of any communal pot.
LTSA has introduced a mini-communistic principle - suddenly 80% of owners can band together and expropriate the remaining 20% of units. This does not happen in any other area of society.
Community living is about social bonding and joint activities. A group of people living in harmony together. En bloc destroys harmony, attracts opportunists and breeds greed.
You missed the point. The issue is not about definition of community v. communism. The issue is that you are not in favour of enbloc and you can't face the reality that whether you like it or not, enbloc will be ongoing till the law later says otherwise. Round 1 is in your favour, round 2 is anybody's guess.
ReplyDeleteI believe many would not want to see TC deteriorate to slums and paying higher maintenance fee. Sooner or later it has to be tear down and rebuilt whether thru enbloc or redevelop it ourselves.
To save you future nightmare, suggest you move to landed properties because so long as your mindset is not change, the battling of enbloc will be always against you.
Oh, the old slum argument rears it's silly head again. TC is not a slum and will never be a slum so long as the MC members are not SC members.
ReplyDeleteYou are a new property agent in the estate, I feel, trying on old tired arguments. We have heard it all before, and discounted it as hogwash. Next thing, after trotting out the slum idea, the PAs will point to equally old estates as suitable replacement units! I once asked a question at a meeting; do these equally old estates have magic paint? Peter Pan lifts? No maintenance issues? Is TC the ONLY estate to pay maintenance fees? Even new units crack up fast and leaking problems occur in the 2nd year of occupancy! Tiles pop up even in newly built HDBs.
A good soldier never leave the battle field until the game is over.
I am not an agent lah. I am TC owner and am only stating the fact. Hey! I was on your side but you confused me on what you really want.
ReplyDeleteI thought the subject topic is "No underselling please" 1.7m or more, nothing less. That's what you & I want right? Now you say you don't want to enbloc. Saying enbloc is uncivilized, unethical, destroy harmony lah, blah, blah, blah.
So are you "a soldier" battling for attractive enbloc price or no enbloc ? Exactly what do you want ? Scratch head... :)
My stand is simple but my reasons are complex.
ReplyDeleteI am a confirmed anti-en blocker and will never sign the CSA - that has been my stand all along.
But I am a realist, too; the fact is the process has started and the RP has to be set and the sale terms decided upon in the CSA.
If people are attempting to sell my home then they had better do an ace job of it. An en bloc sale that forces people to downgrade or side-grade is not acceptable.
1. The RP has to be fully reflective of the land value - not set to make an easy sale.
2. The terms in the CSA have to be pro-owner and not pro-sale or pro-developer.
3. All owners matter, not just the 80% , and if some want to have an exchange rather than cash then work harder.
4. The SC has to be totally transparent in all they do and say. So far we have one SC member who does not reach the bar and ought to be sacked. Since people have elected non-resident owners with multiple units, do not be surprised when your best interests are not served.
5. Do not treat owners like they were born yesterday. Do not insult us with threats of slums, lifts falling from the sky, or some other worse case scenario.
6. Talk positive not negative.
7. And never, ever lie.
If you do this job then you must be mindful of the enormous implications for 560 families -financially, emotionally, physically and mentally . There can be no leeway for shoddy, lazy, expedient or selfish work.
I will be on the SC's tail every step of the way. I know I have been blackballed - people warned not to visit this site, I never receive any of the circulars and old friends who have joined the pro-enbloc ranks no longer talk to me for fear of what they say appearing in print!
If you are a TC owner, then you must have come to this blog only recently and not read any of the hundreds of older posts! I thought my stand was unambiguous, but obviously not so.
You are welcome to voice opposing opinions. I do not like the really facetious comments as they bring a nasty feel and lower the tone of conversation - so stick to nice language and everyone is in the clear.
i thinkthat was an important post from the blog owner an shld be at the top of this blog
ReplyDeleteI am not pro-enbloc, I like the place here now and it will become even better by 2015.
ReplyDeleteBut the process has started, and trust me, I'll do my utmost to make sure the en-bloc is done properly or not at all.
Anything below RP of $1.7mil will be carefully studied and opposed and make this a long drawn affair. So that nobody wins, and perhaps if things were done under table, those responsible be brought to justice.
If the sentiment in getting owners to sign CSA is negative, I'll do my utmost to stop the en-bloc.
The point is, the sale must be done right, positive and above board.
enbloc can be a rather straightforward affair. However, there will always be a group of owners that will not support and usually, this group will raise issues which may be a good thing for all. Sometime, this group is helpful like in Farrer Court. At times, it can be detrimental like in Gillman Heights.
ReplyDeleteIf the SC feel that the RP should be XXX amount. All they need to do is propose it in an EOGM and let everyone have their say. After that, the SC have to guage the responses and decide the final RP for proposal. Whether this RP will get the 80% is up to the owners. Simple as that.
If you guys want 1.7m or higher you need to work harder. I heard many owners are quite happy with 1.4-15m RP.
ReplyDeleteWork harder to get owners happier with more money?
ReplyDeleteDoes it go like "No, no! don't give me 2m for my TC, just 1.4m is enough! I paiseh lah...I want the developers to make their honest profit..."
Re: "many owners are quite happy with 1.4-1.5m RP"
ReplyDeleteThis is unbelievable.
1. 1.7m to 1.4m-1.5m is 11% to 17% discount.
2. 1.5m is equal to $427psf/ppr. (exclude DC/DP)
3. How many owners are there? Please provide some numbers.
4. If you are selling your TC unit individually now and your neighbors are selling at 900K, but you are willing to accept 11 to 17% discount (750k to 800k), why?
The obvious reason is that you want to sell fast and get the cash.
5. Our neighbors, WaterView site and My Manhatten site were sold at $421 psf/ppr and $523 psf/ppr respectively in 2010.
There is no need for us to sell at 11-17% discount considering we will get our cash in 2012/2013 unless we want fast cash.
Regards
I wonder how many of the 500+ owners visit this site.
ReplyDeleteTalk is cheap. If you guys want 1.7M or higher, you need to come up with a mailing campaign targeted at all the owners or better still knock on their doors asking them not to sell anything lesser than 1.7M (if possible show valuation report to prove it).
No point crying foul here that they are selling too cheap. How many can actually hear you ? I guess less than 10 people ?
To make this en-bloc successful, we must be inclusive.
ReplyDeleteIf people are happy with $1.4mil, give them $1.4mil
Some are happy with $1.7mil, give them $1.7mil
There will be some wanting $2mil which may be out of reach, perhaps they have to settle for $1.7mil which is probably max.
Then there are some who wants 1 to 1, get the lawyers to state what they are willing to sell.
You'll be surprise, once it is known that some can get $1.7mil all the $1.4mil happy folks will state that they'll be happy at $1.7mil as well.
Say you have 58% happy with $1.4mil and 38% will only sign at $1.7mil, 2% will sign at $2mil and 2% for 1 to 1.
If the RP is set at $1.4mil the en-bloc will not even see day light.
If the RP is set at $1.7mil then you have 96%, the process moves on.
If the RP is set at $1.7mil with options for 1 to 1 exchange, you'll have 98%, the process moves on.. less hitch.
Think.
The ones who are happy at $1.4mil are more vocal going around pushing the sale down, to leh-long TC to developers for their own benefit to the detriment of owners.
So long as the > 30% of $1.7mil folks stays firm, the en-bloc will stall.
So the $1.4mil folks will be working harder to make TC sound desperate and push their agenda.
Well, I average about 160 visitors to this site a day (not page views) and after important events like the EGM, it shoots up to 250+. So there are people out there logging on. How many are TC'ers? No idea - but the direct traffic is high.
ReplyDeleteWe shall see how the SC go about getting their information out to the owners - since the letterboxes are locked and not accessible to fliers.
It is early days yet and the road ahead is long.
How do u profile the visitors to your blog ? 160 visits does not mean 160 seperate visitors. They may be same visitors logging in on repeat visits.
ReplyDeleteTo reach out to TC owners effectively. You need a mass campaign by mass mailing (if letter box is lock) or road show. I am a not a campaigner but I have done my part telling my neighbours not to sell too low & ask them to pass the words around. In fact they are surprise that we can sell at 1.7M or more.
Yes, well I hope I am not the only owner doing their part. I have chosen a comfortable way for sure, but that is because I do not have good people skills and am more likely to insult than persuade face to face! My door-to-door days are over as my partner has switched sides and now goes door-to-door singing the opposite tune.
ReplyDeleteOne should stick to one's strengths, and the pen is mine.
I am not too bothered with the statistics,they rise and fall depending on what's happening. Only those owners who USE computers will get to know about me. Google Tampines Court and there I am.
I think there is an SC meeting this sat, 26 Feb 10AM at MCST office. Those interested can attend as observers. Check yr notice board.
ReplyDeleteEvery one has to do our part in whatever way. Word of mouth is one way. One person spread to 10, ask the 10 spread to another 10.. and so forth. Its quite easy to reach 500. So far I have spread to 3, 7 more to go to hit my target.
ReplyDeleteThe message is : " Not less than 1.7M " Educate them on the reason so they can understand (no need to be too technical). For me I based on $psf and said that even at 1.7m we are only getting $1Kpsf which is the bare minimum to get replacement unit. My listeners agreed. You may have your way so long as the message is being spread.
Just for those who are ignorant of the fact that Govt Land Sales for Tampines Ave 10 and Simei sites come with a 99-year lease and no DC and DP payable. Whereas for TC these DC n DP have to be factored in for the equation.The DC n DP components may come up to 18-20% of our total price. Lets wait for March and see what increase the URA has for us.
ReplyDeleteLadies and Gentlemen, as i have written before about not worrying about Developer's earning, here are some quotes by CDL's boss from CNA:
ReplyDelete"I believe the volume will go down to some extent. The prices will not plunge. The prices, depending on where, may be down three to five percent," Mr Kwek said.
"But the volume will be down to some extent. But that is an opportune time for you to consider buying, in my opinion."
Mr Kwek said Singapore will continue to be an attractive market for property investments.
Last year, developers sold a total of 16,292 units in Singapore.
"If there is a temporary slow down, so be it. We have to accept the fact that even real estate businesses is cyclical in nature.
Despite the likelihood of slowdown in the property market, CDL said it is confident it will remain profitable in the next six to 12 months.
- NOTE CDL is confident it will remain profitable!
I understand the new condo opp simei mrt is selling between 1000-1500 psf.
ReplyDeleteEven if I get 1.7m for TC i may not be able to get a replacement unit there !
Thank you for your effort to setup this blog. Really gives me lots of info. I am now very certain to sell not less than $1.7mils ( $484psf/ppr). Initially, i was thinking to sell at $1.4mils. Is there a way for this blog to reach out to more TC owners ?
ReplyDeleteLand of TC is valuable. The land can only goes up not down. And our plot ratio is 2.8 & gross floor area 1,966,052sqft. Capitaland said they are going to invest $5-6 Bilions this year. So, please make sure capitaland knows about our land.
ReplyDeleteYes at $1.7m, you wont get a My Manhattan 1700sf at $1.7m. A friend bought Waterfront Key 1500sf apt at $1.58m, or abt 1050 psf.
ReplyDeleteTC is just 0.76km to simei MRT. 0.93km to Tampines MRT. The waterview plot ( at tampines ave 10) not near any MRT bidded at $421psf/ppr. If we sell TC at $1.7mils, it's just $484psf/ppr. I think it's really a fair value. I will tell my neighbours not to sell lower that $1.7mils. Keep up your good work !
ReplyDeleteYou guys are not experts and yet dare to give opinions like professionals. The 2 Government tenders were based on fresh 99 year leases and no waiting periods. With TC, the developer has to pay development charges and top up fees to a fresh 99 year lease. These costs will have to be deducted from the comparative sale prices and the RP will invariably be less than the $1.7m.
ReplyDeleteWhile we all want the highest price, please don't be stupid and unrealistic as well !!!
Talk is cheap.
ReplyDeleteDifferent selling price have been brought up leading to $1.4m, $1.5m, 1.7m, 2m....
When the rubber hits the track... will you sign on the line whenthe amount you are shouting is in the CSA.
It must be quite unnerving for the 'professionals' to see how their area of expertise can be made accessible to mere laymen. That their job isn't nearly as complicated as they make it out to be, and can be picked up quite easily by anyone with O Level math.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that those contributing their knowledge to this blog are NOT from related professional fields? I don't claim to be one myself - but I cannot rule out others, since they are anonymous.
I only know the Pariah's background and in these matters and it is unparalleled.
anyone can help to calculate the Development charge for TC ?
ReplyDeleteDC rates are significant. 350 K per unit
ReplyDeleteWhoever you are, how dare you call us stupid! You know very well that we don't have to sell if we don't get our price. What we are asking is reasonable price to help us get a replacement unit if we have to be forced out of our home. If you are not prepare to pay, then keep your money. We are not hard up !
ReplyDeleteAnyway, you don't have to worry too much whether 1.7M is overpriced for the developer. They are smart people and can always buy the land, not to develop straightaway but to increase their landbank stock. They know a piece of land is a GEM when they sees one and so do we TC owners. No need to be desperate and sell at giveaway prices.
ReplyDeletelandbank TC for long term? Hey, you guys are 99 yrs leasehold and not FH. Developers do not keep such land for long. They develop it straightaway and within a few years.
ReplyDeleteTo: "you guys are not professionals..."
ReplyDeleteSigh, you are either a property agent or works in a property development trying to press the price down.
If you look at the previous posts and newspapers, you'll realize that the developers will still be able to get a BIG FAT profit by passing all the costs to the new home buyers.
CDL boss just announced this year will still be profitable!!
You are the one who is stupid.
Real owners will NOT gain from sale like this.
Flippers, property agents, lawyers and most of all the developers are the ones who will gain - they are the experts who will get their profit one way or another.
Show me a Developer who lost money from en-bloc.
SHOW ME, prove to me! Show real statistics, not from your so call 'professional' down play of others.
Seriously, I wonder what you get from Developers for standing up for them...
yes, agreed. I am not interested to sell if it's not $1.7mils. DC $350k cannot be charge to us. I will just hold on. I am very comfortable living here and bought another unit for investment purpose. I get good rental too. So, really no hurry if i don't get my price.
ReplyDeleteRe: You guys are not experts and yet dare to give opinions like professionals
ReplyDeleteI am TC resident and trusted 100% the so-called 'professionals' in TC round 1 until their true color was revealed in STB hearing.
It will be ready 'Stupid" again for not learnt from Round 1 and still trust the so-called 'professionals' again in Round 2.
I think "You guys" is not TC resident and have not read the tape transcript of Round 1.
Below is extracted from tape transcripts and please tell us where is the "professionalism".
--- Extract from STB hearing on 16 June 2008 ---
Q is Lawyer.
A is PA.
Q. So the impact is it’s a marketing tool to encourage owners to go en bloc; am I right?
A. Yes.
Q. But it has nothing to do with the price they get en bloc? It doesn’t impact the price
they get; am I right?
A. Yes.
Q. So, the -- looking at 7.1, the sale price for various units has got nothing to do with the
indicative -- nothing to do with showing that the indicative valuation of 389,719,233 was
fair and reasonable?
A. I did consult my in-house valuer.
Q. No, no, my question -- (property agent), we’ll be a lot faster if you’ll listen to my
question and then answer my question. My question is: The sale price of the individual
unit has got nothing to do with saying that the indicative valuation of the site of 389-odd
million was fair and reasonable?
A. Yes.
----------------------------------------------------
Please note the "professional" above was supposed to serve TC and getting commission at the end of the
service.
I am just curious if you are also a "professionals" trying to use DC/DP as a marketing tool to pull down the RP.
Appreciate if "you guys" could show us your calculation of below 1.7m RP to prove that your are 'smart' and realistic".
TC residents are 'smarter' now and some can do self-help calculation to double check numbers from the so-called 'professionals'.
Thank you.
hi everyone,
ReplyDeletewhether this is good news or bad depends on whether you like the enbloc ...
Recently, there is less news of successful enblocs. Several developments were marketed but no news after that. (I am not talking about GLS)
There is now a divide between sellers and buyers....
Obviously, you do not understand the meaning of landbank or the implication of it. By your reply, it shows your knowledge is very shallow.
ReplyDeleteShow us more substance to convince us why our price should not be 1.7M or more. Else please do not be a pesky fly irritating us.
I agree DC/DP should not be use to intimidate us to press our price down. Next he will suggest the cost of re-development should concern us too. We are not interest in all these except whether you can meet our asking price. Simple as that !
ReplyDeleteI have the full calculation formuale use by developers. Why should I show this 'idiots' how developers calculate their surplus and teach them. They are suppose to be professional agents and educate us rather than the other way round.
I want to remind the agents that under the new CEA rules you are suppose to be professional, competent and act fully in our interest as we are paying you commission. If you can't do the job then please don't apply to be our agents !
yes, I am shallow and do not know about landbanking, sigh....
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I think I will only sign above 2m.
No need to crack yr head to understand land banking. We have the land, that's what really matters, what the developer wants to do with it is none of our concern.
ReplyDeleteAt 2M is only 1170psf. Not that attractive if you consider the new launch at simei is between 1000-1500 psf and their piece of land size is pathetic compared with TC.
hello everyone, P/s note that our landsize is 702,161sqft with 2.8 plot ratio which is 1,966,052. Do all of you know that developer can build their own ideal iconic condo at this site like capitaland project D'leedon, interlace, rivergate ? There are many small enbloc plots around which is similiar to those offer by government. To have a big plot like us with 2 entrances are rare. No underselling, please.
ReplyDeleteland size is one thing, the district is also important...not comparing apple to apple.
ReplyDelete" To have a big plot like us with 2 entrances are rare "
ReplyDeleteFully agreed! Anyone who cannot discover the GEM need to have his eyes examined! Take a look from google map and see for yrself how pathetic the land size opp simei mrt compare with TC.
MND revises rates for development charges
ReplyDeleteBy Travis Teo | Posted: 28 February 2011 1826 hrs
Developers contacted by Channel NewsAsia declined to comment.
However, other market watchers said the increase in DC rates is unlikely to have a major impact on collective sales.
Dr Chua Yang Liang, Head of Research (South-east Asia) at Jones Lang LaSalle, said: "DC, as a component of overall development charges, is actually quite a small component...and DC charges are only imposed on those development that has potential to be over and above what the site has been approved for."
>>> Land size is one thing, the district is also important...not comparing apple to apple <<<
ReplyDeleteTampines is a good district in the east. The HDB allocation was 1 unit : 32 applications when they were developing tampines. In tampines itself, it has one of the highest number of households & yet very few condo available as compare to other estates. The HDB upgraders ( no need even investors) are more than enough to buy up all the units if developer develope it.
" comparing apple to apple .."
ReplyDeleteWe are not comparing Tampines to D09, D10 properties. If our location is over there, it would be a different price game altogether.
guys for 1.6 you may be able to buy the new project in simei. so is simei prime and tampines court not. come of it . land is scarce in spore. laguna is already comin to 38yrs old and yet they are able to command a good price. Why.... because of the land the space...
ReplyDeleteSo Tc has the land and the space. why rush!!! no 1.8 to 2m do not sell. Forget the dc or all the other fears that people are putting to us. they are the flippers and agents. its our land. not happy do not act for us...
yes, please wait a few more years bec price will rise... in a few years time, price may also rise further so let wait a few more years...
ReplyDeletebtw, Laguna's enbloc was not successful as no developer was going tho pay their RP.
" Laguna's enbloc was not succesful as no developer was going to pay their RP "
ReplyDeleteLaguna park owners are wise. Where to get land facing the sea? Its all a waiting game. If they are patient enough, developers would have to pay their price. Without land, they might as well close shop.
Likewise with TC, we will not panic because of some agents or desperate flippers, investors trying their scare tactics to bring our RP down.
Let's just continue to wait like laguna park owners. Let's see who will have the last laugh.
From iTODAY:A case of if you cannot beat them, join them?
ReplyDeleteMar 4, 2011 6:00 AM
Many had expected strong interest and a good fight for a prime private housing site in Bishan when the tender closed last week. Nevertheless, the result still surprised many or should I say "shocked" them - and in more ways than one - when it was announced l...ate on Thursday.
The first surprise was the highest bid submitted: S$550 million or S$869 per sq ft per plot ratio (psf ppr) for the 129,136 sq ft 99-year state plot. The second was that it was about 27 per cent higher than the second-placed bid and a WHOPPING 2.9 times the minimum bid of S$189,831,390
TC WILL SHOCK AND SHUT THE MOUTH OF THOSE AGENTS, FLIPPERS & INVESTORS WHO THINK OUR RP IS TOO HIGH FOR DEVELOPERS TO CONSIDER !
Info from URA : Tender closing (3 Mar2011)for residential site at Bedok Reservoir Road
ReplyDeleteNo of bids: 8
Highest Bid: $5009.94 psm/ppr = $ 466 psf/ppr
Advantages of the Site:
1. Next to Reservoir
2. Near future DTL3 MRT (500-600m, I guess)
3. Near Shops / Market
Disadvantages of the Site:
1. Opposite PUB Water Work
2. Near Kaki Bukit Centre
3. Near HDB Sand Quarry.
-----------------------------------
Land parcel at Bedok Reservoir Road
Allowable Development : Residential
Site Area : 45,622.9 m²
Maximum permissible gfa : 63,873 m² (Plot Ratio 1.4)
Date of launch : 18 january 2011
Date tender closed : 3 march 2011
Lease period : 99 years
Good news!! It is reasonable we ask for $2.5m
ReplyDeleteIf developer willing to pay 2.9 times of our minimum asking of 1.7M as Bishan Site, we will all be multi millionaires ! Huat ah ! So relax people, have confident in TC land as a GEM !
ReplyDeleteTo: flippers & investors, don't go for small gain, go for the big one. If you can't hold, just sell it off, I am sure there are takers.
To agents: Please be reminded that you have fiduciary duties to act in the best interest of the owners and get the highest possible price for us. We are paying you commission, not the developers.
$320m top bid for Bedok site, in Bedok Reservior Rd which works out to $465psf ppr, by UOL Grp/SingLand. 2nd highest is $312m.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the implication for TC ? How much should our RP be? Any professional can advise ?
Waterview site: 8 bids $421 psf/ppr
ReplyDeleteSimei site: 18 bids $532 psf/ppr
Bedok Reservoir site: 8 bids $465 psf/ppr
The valuation of TC should be closed to Simei site if not better.
The main different between TC and Simei site is the distance (700m vs 50m)to MRT. There is no MRT track noise for TC. Simei Condo must build a 6 Storey High Waterfall to reduce the MRT noise.
If TC is sold through public tender only, the no of bids should be from 8 to 18.
Regards
Bedok Resevoir site is also less attractive due to it's low density. I has a plot ratio of only 1.4.
ReplyDeleteBack to my question. Is it reasonable we ask for $2.5m
ReplyDeleteWhat is plot ratio 1.4 vs TC 2.8 do you think street name play apart in price
ReplyDeleteIf the developer can build more units then his profit margin will of course be bigger. It is the reason why en bloc is so popular, without the increase in intensity in older estates (eg TC 1.7 increased to 2.8, a doubling of the GFA)) there would be little interest in developing the land.
ReplyDeleteEG: two plots of land of equal size - one with a plot ratio of 1.4 and the other 2.8. Which do you think is more attractive to a developer? The latter of course, and it would reflect in their bidding price.
I remember at the STB for TC round 1, TC was compared to Waterview yet the property agent did not make allowance for the difference in plot ratio (WV was 2.5- a difference of 10%)into the price. he said it was a 'slight' difference. He was asked if owners would think a difference of millions of dollars was considered 'slight'.
I think we should get valuation instead of picking figure from the air. We do not want to be unrealistic in our asking at the same time do not wish to be short changed.
ReplyDeleteGetting valuation, do it right. Get positive ones. En-bloc round 1, TC was compared to Flamingo Valley which was right beside a cemetery.
ReplyDeleteThere was error in computation, the lawyer from minority walked through the calculations, and the evaluator admit the mistake.
The valuation done by minority was higher showing locations, MRT station, shopping malls etc. He also showed that TC cannot be compared with the HUDC in Bedok reservoir because there were no MRT, etc. Read the transcripts.
Desperate people will have a skewed valuation to press down RP to sell no matter what. This is a fact.
People who are wise will have valuation done properly to reflect TC's true value, not just the 'now' but the future plans of this region taken into consideration.
Am I right to say if valuation should be close to simei site or better, TC RP should be 2.5M or better? If not how much TC valuation should be ?
ReplyDeleteTC owners should be giving some insight of how much market price they should be asking before they make a decision.
Let's forget about round 1 episode and move on. Get a few valuations and present it to EGM for owners to compare and decide.
ReplyDeleteFlashing a few numbers up on a screen at an EGM is wholly inadequate.
ReplyDeleteNothing less than a detailed, prepared worksheet, given in advance to all owners with full computation and annotation as to source will be acceptable.
Owners will need time to check the figures for accuracy.
Let's never forget round 1 and the unsubstantiated figures given by the experts at the owner's meetings.
THE Pine Grove condominium is up for tender at $1.7 billion.
ReplyDeleteAt a site area of about 893,000sqft or 1,500 units each at 1,200sqft, Pine Grove is the 'largest en bloc site', according to real estate services firm Jones Lang LaSalle.
The tender price also makes it Singapore's largest residential collective sale, beating the $1.34 billion record set by Farrer Court in 2007.
The site has a gross plot ratio of up to 2.1 and can be redeveloped into a residential development of up to 24 storeys.
The land has been zoned for residential use.
Jones Lang LaSalle says the land will appeal to consortiums as it can be redeveloped into a landmark development or be divided into several smaller parcels for phase developement.
The tender will close on April 19.
source: ST Mar 7, 2011
The flashed numbers on the screen should be valid valuation reports or professional opinions not just figures pick from the air.
ReplyDeleteAnyway I think most owners are not in the position to decide which number reflect the true value. We need expert opinions from persons who are more expect than the valuers. Are there such a person (s)? If there are please volunteer your service. Else, still have to resort to majority votes. No point oppose for the sake of opposing. Waste everybody's time.
Most owners may not be - but some owners are, and contrary to what you might imagine, you need not be an expert in the field.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me these 'experts' are not that highly educated; mostly poly graduates with poor language skills, and if they can do the math then the other professionals in unrelated fields in the estate can do it too.
IT IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE
And the valuation report(s) should not be the kind that were used in round 1; the report given to owners then held absolutely no detail whatsoever.
The report has to show the complete figures for residual land valuation AND add on to that the prospective DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL that will be shown to any prospective buyer. The figures will be hugely different! A low value for us - a higher value for them!
Anything less DONT SIGN THE CSA.
Do they dare treat is as dumbos again?
We now have better counter-arguments, we have recent land sales, better en bloc sales prices, we have become more enlightened on every single step. Even if 50% sign quickly - the remaining 30% will not be so easily duped.
If you bring in any decent MA like Savills, Knight Frank, Credo, etc... they will describe the rationale behind the valuation and answer your queries.
ReplyDeleteNo worries.
Is your title 1.7m minimum per unit, anything less is undersell still valid ?
ReplyDeleteTo: "Let's forget about round 1..."
ReplyDeleteI can't just forget it, some of us spent money to prove that it was done in bad faith.
Agree, bring in multiple MA to see the proposals, we can see which ones are better.
Don't bring in any MA that has conflict of interests with our SC members' property company.
The longer SC drags this, the higher property prices will go, hence RP is a moving target.
People can't put money else where... property is safer bet, prices are still upward trend, just slower.
I think you need to discount the figures for comparison with Waterview and My Manhattan because the total number of units to be built for both is only 690 and 301 respectively whilst TC area will need to build up to 1500 units. Bigger land area of course lower price psf right? Also My Manhattan is only about 250m to the MRT while TC is at least 600m or more to Simei MRT. Waterview has a good view at the reservoir while TC has a terrible PIE view next to us. These are very important considerations that have been totally left out in your pricing estimate.
ReplyDeleteDoes it mean you will sell at 1.7m ? If not please change the title, else it's misleading. Especially when you are using www.tampinescourt.net. It may mislead others that this is the price TC owner wants.
ReplyDeleteWhen I said forget about round 1 means learn from the mistakes and move on. No point moan over the past mistakes. We learn from them and now become wiser. Get it ?
ReplyDeleteAnd regard to comparison with Waterview and Manhattan, this is not the way enbloc is being sold unlike selling individual units. Developers has a formulae to work out the surplus he can make after minus of various costs. Whatever bid they put in will sure make profit for them. If we set the RP too high, no developers will be keen, if we set too low, we will be short changed. That's why we need professional to advise us.
Bigger land doesn't mean we have to sell lower cost. Bigger land means more units to built and more surplus for developers and will generate more interest from them. Also, bigger land means better facilities which will attract more buyers, tenants and investors. That's what the developers are interested. To sell fast ! TC will attract more bids than the smaller piece of land like manhattan.
You said we are further from mrt but have you consider the positive points such as near round market, in between two town centres, no mrt noise etc. You scare tactics won't work on us. Save your breath.
Re: "I think you need to discount"
ReplyDeleteRecent land sales in the area cannot be discounted. No valuer worth his salt would discount them.
You are confusing psf with psf ppr
The important factors are the site area and it's plot ratio. The higher the plot ratio the more dense the development can be. There is no direct correlation between site area and en bloc price alone.
The number of units built is immaterial. The developer can build 2000 shoebox units or 600 larger units - it is up to him to decide how to divide the GFA to maximise his profits. Generally speaking, smaller units have a higher psf than larger units - hence the reason why units are getting smaller and smaller all round; developers realize more profit that way.
A view is not a factor in an en bloc sale.
Just as property agents will try and depress the RP with such negative comments as your own, they turn around and tell the complete opposite to the developer-buyer.
So "terrible view of PIE' will be transformed into 'panoramic view' or 'mins to major transport link'.
Waterview also has a view of the sand quarry and next to that huge road which can only become noisier and dustier over the years.
So, VIEW is not a factor in en bloc pricing.
RE: "Does it mean you will sell at $1.7"
Answer: No.
It means the SC had better not try and lower the RP just to sell the estate quickly. The $1.7 is not fixed, it is early days yet and 2011 may bring many more land sales and en bloc sales for a wider comparison.
This is a one-person blog, Tampines Court is not copyrighted. There is even a development company out there called Tampines Court owned by FEO. I suggest you ask FEO to change it's name before asking me to change mine.
I am not saying about copyright issue or insist that you should not use the name. I am saying yr title of 1.7m printed on the website address is misleading as representative of TC owners' expectation as the value of our land may go up and not everyone will accept 1.7M. For me, I definitely won't accept to sell at this price unless I am convinced that this is the best price developer can offer.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't change the 1.7m figure to "not less than valuation or market price", something like that. In this case when SC, agent or developer visit your blog, they would not think that 1.7m is our expected asking figure.
Ms. Stella Hoh, National Director and Head of Investments at Jones Lang LaSalle (JLL), which is the sole marketing agent for the property (pine grove).
ReplyDelete"Many developers are facing depleting land banks and would be looking at replenishing their land banks. Despite the recent cooling measure, we are confident that the demands for en bloc sites would remain strong as the surge in foreign home buyers owning to the recovery of some key economies, further fuel the take up rates," she added.
Source: ST
Listen people : "DEPLETING LAND BANKS!".
ReplyDeleteNo wonder developer offer is so high for bishan site.
Its all a question of supply & demand. Tell me, is there another piece of land as large and good location as TC ? Stop listening to all those negative talks from agents concerning our land or your moral will start to deplete and sell our TC cheap.
From TODAY online:
ReplyDeleteThe Housing and Development Board (HDB) yesterday closed the tender for a residential site at Clementi Avenue 4 after receiving 11 bids, the highest of which was S$224 million from EL Development.
“This is the highest number of bids submitted since the Design, Build & Sell Scheme(DBSS ) started in 2006,” said Mr Nicholas Mak, executive director, Research & Consultancy,
at SLP International Property Consultants.
The 21,906 sq m site has a 103-year lease term including a 48-month construction period.
The top bid translates to S$2,921 per sq m per plot ratio, the HDB said.
The site —which can yield about 770 units — was launched in January under the DBSS. It can be developed into new flats in blocks of up to 45 storeys and the proximity to the Clementi MRT station, primary schools and the town centre would make it attractive to young families, said Mr Mak.
He estimated the breakeven cost at S$490 to S$530 per sq ft. HDB will announce the final
tender results in the next two weeks.
NOTICE what Mr Mak say about the land: proximity to MRT, schools, town centre ... attractive.. And that's what EL Development was bidding for!
TC owners be steady, we also got MRTs University & international schools, town centre, market, 2 major highways... I don't think Pine Grove got as much, but they are doing the RIGHT thing!
Who will talk up the market?
ReplyDelete1)Owners of TC
2)Marketing agents selling to developers, 3)property developers trying to sell their units
4)property agents trying to sell their units
Who will talk down the market?
1) Marketing agents selling the RP to owners
Who is neutral?
Read this - http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_629844.html
enjoy....
Anyone has any info on the content of the last SC meetings? I thought they are suppose to paste the minutes of meeting on notice board ?
ReplyDeleteWe need to be updated regularly. Dun want nasty surprise like in round 1.
SC is supposed to display the meeting minutes within 7 days after the meeting. The first SC meeting was on 26 Feb 2011, the minutes shall be displayed by 4 Mar 2011. It is overdue by 6 days as at today (9 Mar 2011).
ReplyDeletePlease refer to below extract from Third Schedule:
--------------------------------------------------
Keeping of records
9. —(1) The collective sale committee shall keep minutes of its proceedings and shall cause minutes of general meetings convened in accordance with the Second Schedule to be kept.
(2) If the management corporation is required by its by-laws to maintain a notice board, the
collective sale committee shall cause a copy of the minutes of a meeting of the collective sale
committee to be displayed on the notice board within 7 days after the meeting.
(3) A copy of any minutes referred to in sub-paragraph (2) shall be kept displayed on the notice board for a period of not less than 14 days.
(4) If there is no notice board, the collective sale committee shall give each subsidiary proprietor a copy of the minutes referred to in sub-paragraph (2) within the period specified in that subparagraph.
-----------------------------------------
To: "Who is neutral?..."
ReplyDeleteDisappointing to read it. Nothing new. This was a Jan 29th news..., OLD already!
He is just saying "both these factors should help to curb the steady trend of rising prices."
It's what MBT has been saying all along even after the latest cooling measures, it is to prevent property bubble burst. Since he has in place measures to prevent bubble from bursting, it means the property market will not crash, it is to keep it at a sustainable pace. It's in the government's interest to keep it that way.
Many of us will grow older, live longer, children get married, moves out more homes needed. Government want Singaporeans to have more kids... more homes... needed.
So where to build new homes? How much more land is the government going to sell? There is a limit to land reclamation.
Have you ever wonder why local and foreign investors prefers to invest in properties here?
Because we are clean, green and SMALL. All cities are the same and Singapore is a CITY STATE!
Property prices has to go up like the number of floors of HDB flats!
To grow the country's economy, an increase in population is needed to support it, where is the increased population going to live in?
THINK. Nothing neutral about, plain pure economics.
What goes up will come down and then it'll come up again even higher because of lack of supply and increase in demand.
Property prices is a cycle, but in land scarce Singapore, it'll go up and down however in an upward trend.
Yes, can we have an update from anyone who has attended EOGM?
ReplyDeleteMM Lee's philosophy of Home ownership
ReplyDeletehttp://www.razor.tv/site/servlet/segment/main/news/60938.html
Important note on MM Lee's philosophy (note the point below, he said upgrade to bigger flats):
ReplyDeleteMr Lee reiterated that home ownership
gives every Singaporean “a sense of
ownership”.
“Our families own their homes and
are rooted to Singapore ... Moreover, with
National Service, every family must have
a stake in a property to defend,” he added.
As Singaporeans take great pride in
their homes, Mr Lee said, “it is crucial to
prevent our estates from becoming urban
slums”.
“As Singapore prospers, the value of
their HDB homes also appreciate. Home
ownership motivates Singaporeans to work
hard and to aspire for a better future for
their family, to upgrade to better and bigger
flats,” he added.
MY VIEW: We don't need en-bloc, we should really think about using our funds to upgrade TC. Think carefully, maybe each unit needs to fork out a few thousand dollars and you'll get a great estate. HDB upgrading isn't free, if they can affort it why can't we?
When the estate looks great, developers won't view us as desperado's. Then they won't be able to press price down.
And we still live in a great environment regardless. Take pride in your home like MM Lee say.
Like the Chinese say, little money don't go out, big money no come in.
MBT's '33,000 is hell of a lot of unsold flats'
ReplyDeletehttp://forum.channelnewsasia.com/viewtopic.php?t=419595&postdays=0&postorder=desc
Note even with the 33,000 unsold flats, MBT said:
"But he acknowledges that the supply overhanging the market may not depress prices. If the global economy gets back on track and confidence returns, then demand will keep prices firm."
SO TC Owners, DON'T Let anyone use this 33,000 unsold as a means to suppress TC en-bloc RP.
And for all those out there who worry if developers will make money, or balance what we want with what developers needs are, here's what MBT has to say:
'Those are judgment calls the market has to make. So developers have to make those calls; if they get it right they will be rewarded, if they get it wrong they will get punished.'
'Developers themselves of course have their own mechanisms. They can delay construction or take longer to put their properties to market or shorten it if the market is hot,' he added.
In another words, it's the developer's business, not yours to worry.
I still think the 1.7M in the heading should be takened out since the market is moving and the market price is also changing and this RP suggestion may no longer may appropriate. We don't want the TC owners, SC or agents who read this blog think that we are happy with this figure. Let the SC & MA get the professional valuer to value our land and come up with proposed RP instead of relying on personal opinions.
ReplyDeleteInteresting read:
ReplyDeletehttp://imcmsimages.mediacorp.sg/CMSFileserver/documents/006/PDF/20110325/2503PPP050.pdf
I am no longer willing to sell at 1.7M. I rather stay put.
ReplyDeleteTC Owners, be careful of how the en-bloc is going.
ReplyDeleteThe news today:
Fed Reserve planning end to ultra-low interest rates
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/1120935/1/.html
It means that in due time, the interests rates will go up, those with more than one mortgages to pay will be hit, liquidity will slow and people will start dumping their homes to get out of interests hikes.
We must to allow en-bloc raiders to pressure TC to sell at cheap at your expense to save their own pockets.
I am an owner at TC and chanced to see this blog. I read the above argument made why the en-bloc sale price per unit is now worth $1.7 m, based on recent URA tenders of condo sites nearby.
ReplyDeleteI think the above calculation is flawed as the author did not factor in 2 major costs any potential developer has to pay for buying TC site:
a. development charge payable for any increase in plot ratio
b. the topping up of the lease, back to 99 years. (Remember TC is about 26 years old).
Any estimation of en-bloc value at TC must factor in these 2 major costs. I have no concrete technical data to calculate the costs for points a & b, but my ball park estimated net value for TC en-bloc should be in region of only $1.3-1.4m per unit at present. Maybe, the Sale Committee can get professional valuers to advise us?
So let's not have too high a hope, ok? Our en-bloc value is not worth $1.7m at this point of time! Not yet!!
Maybe if we wait for another 2 years, then $1.7m is achievable if the market keeps rising! Meanwhile, let's enjoy staying here for the time being and wait for prices to rise further!
I disagree.
ReplyDeleteAll these costs you mentioned in a & b are always passed on to the new development buyers.
When we en-bloc, we don't worry what developers have to pay or what developers will get. They have their way. Read other posts in this blog.
It's not what you get now that matters. It is what you should get when the en-bloc completes in 2 years. What you just suggested is short sighted.
Let's just say in 2 years it'll be $1.7mil, but you just recommended $1.4mil. It means that in 2 years, you'll have $300K short of an equivalent size and located unit.
It means in 2 years you'll have to downgrade.
Example, en-bloc 1, valued $695K, 2-3years down, it's $950K. If it was sold at $695K and you collected the money 2years later, you'll be $250K short of an equivalent sized unit. 5years later, when the new development is completed, it'll be 2X more.
Just read news paper on previous en-bloc estate and their new development. Compare, you'll learn more. Developers got bigger calculators then you.
Re: I am an owner at TC and chanced to see this blog
ReplyDeleteYour own argument actually supported $1.7m is the right reserve price for TC at 2011.
Please remember that the reserve price must be projected 2 years later when we collect our procced from the en-bloc sale.
Regards
Even at 1.7m we are only getting $1000psf.
ReplyDeleteWith today's market, what can we buy at $1000 psf for replacement ? When I said replacement, it must at least equivalent land size, location, near to ammenities, market, 2 mrt, town centre, good size, layout etc. I guess hardly are we able to.
So folks, 1.7m is not really a good bargain. We should at least ask for 2.0M so we can have some cash for renovation and maybe a little spare.
From HDB Web: 140 units of BTO studio apartments will be built at the empty land next to Tampines Court.
ReplyDeleteRegards
MND Minister says prices of homes aren't increasing or dropping sharply, it's holding steady - he may be referring to HDB, but it would in some way affect the private market as well. Holding prices is the best way out. Both sides can't complain... so now people can relief that they can afford a home and others will not lose value on paper...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1141535/1/.html