Following charts and editorials were updated 12 Jan 2017
Ok, snooze time over.
Ok, snooze time over.
Instead of illuminating SPs on the Timeline, the CSC has managed to confuse us even more. One very astute guy posted a very interesting observation on the Timeline given by our MA at the SP meeting in Aug after the sale.
At that 25 Aug SP Meeting 2, we were led to believe by the MA that the 3 months to completion started from the SALES ORDER. We all have a pic of the 'MA Timeline' on our phones which proves my point. (I also have audio).
I went back to the 01 Jul 2017 SP Meeting 1 and, sure enough, I have a photo of another slide . It said ' Scheduled Completion date 3 months after 100% consent OR 3 months after LTSA Sale Order' On top of that I have the audio record of my questioning the MA about the Completion Date and repeatedly nailed him to his 3 months from Sales Order mantra.
I went back to the 01 Jul 2017 SP Meeting 1 and, sure enough, I have a photo of another slide . It said ' Scheduled Completion date 3 months after 100% consent OR 3 months after LTSA Sale Order' On top of that I have the audio record of my questioning the MA about the Completion Date and repeatedly nailed him to his 3 months from Sales Order mantra.
Now we are told that the 3 months to completion starts from the the GOV APPROVALS which is a whole different kettle of fish - and we are told to go back to the SPA and work it out for ourselves. We either do that or sit and wait for the next update in god knows when. This is the kind of leg-work we expect to come from our CSC members (at least make some effort, boys, you haven't produced a single chart to date), MA and lawyer. We should not be told to go work it out for ourselves ['Please refer to the S&P that was given to all SPs for the various deadline for the various applications'.FB 9/01/18]
Hopeless, completely hopeless. look at the Florence Regency enbloc website and weep
I will give it a whirl - but I don't guarantee anything - as the so-called SPA is a shambolic disaster and a real nightmare to read. It's just a heavily edited tender application with reams of lines crossed out and others added in. If we had been given a clean copy perhaps we could have seen the omissions and pitfalls earlier.
On to the 'Approvals':
First there is the LESSOR APPROVAL:
Tampines Court got the Lessor Approval on the 15 Sep 2017. I still have that FB screenshot thanks to another SP. The Lessor Approval is just TC getting the go-ahead from the president of Singapore (sounds stupid I know).
Next comes the RPA Approval (Buyer): We KNOW they got the RPA approval on or before the 15 Sep because they told us on FB. The Buyer has to get a Qualifying Certificate or Clearance Certificate (RPA Approval).
Letters of Authority:
Ok, found it... 10A of the SPA . Basically MCST consent for the Buyer to enter the estate at any time to do anything necessary for the sale. It is 'from' the SPA Date.
Then comes the OPP Application (Buyer)
The new LTA PAFS requirement might have caught them off-guard and put a spanner in the works; they couldn't proceed with OPP until this approval was granted.
SLA Top Up Consent after the OPP Approval
Baseline Confirmation after OPP Approval
LUP Application after the SLA Top Up Consent Application
Anyway,
Hopeless, completely hopeless. look at the Florence Regency enbloc website and weep
I will give it a whirl - but I don't guarantee anything - as the so-called SPA is a shambolic disaster and a real nightmare to read. It's just a heavily edited tender application with reams of lines crossed out and others added in. If we had been given a clean copy perhaps we could have seen the omissions and pitfalls earlier.
On to the 'Approvals':
First there is the LESSOR APPROVAL:
Tampines Court got the Lessor Approval on the 15 Sep 2017. I still have that FB screenshot thanks to another SP. The Lessor Approval is just TC getting the go-ahead from the president of Singapore (sounds stupid I know).
Next comes the RPA Approval (Buyer): We KNOW they got the RPA approval on or before the 15 Sep because they told us on FB. The Buyer has to get a Qualifying Certificate or Clearance Certificate (RPA Approval).
Letters of Authority:
Ok, found it... 10A of the SPA . Basically MCST consent for the Buyer to enter the estate at any time to do anything necessary for the sale. It is 'from' the SPA Date.
Then comes the OPP Application (Buyer)
The new LTA PAFS requirement might have caught them off-guard and put a spanner in the works; they couldn't proceed with OPP until this approval was granted.
SLA Top Up Consent after the OPP Approval
Baseline Confirmation after OPP Approval
LUP Application after the SLA Top Up Consent Application
Anyway,
Well with this new, shocking information I have gone back to the SPA and made an attempt at the EARLIEST and the LATEST possible Timeline.
Actual Approval will be somewhere in between*
Please note, this is just little ol' me playing about with spreadsheets again, and the maximum Timeframe looks damn scary. I trust we will NOT have to wait until Jul 2018 for the Completion Date - but as I have said before, I don't trust this team one inch and it is entirely possible we might have to wait that long.
These things conveniently come out only after the STB.
These things conveniently come out only after the STB.
WARNING: MAY CONTAIN ERRORS - READ AT YOUR OWN RISK (especially old guys with dicky hearts)
These charts and editorials were updated 12 Jan 2017* I must acknowledge Busybody here, we all ignore him as he is like a mosquito buzzing about our heads with reams of illegible comments (what format is he using?), but he kept harping on about LTA non stop and so finally I followed his link. I believe now that the LTA Approval is the hold up in the chain of events. The CSC are locked into their SPA deadline framework of 8 mths max. Completion might very well be in Jun/Jul 2018 after all.
Blogger, please don't snooze anymore (I know nice weather these days to nap). Keep this blog open until we collect our money. That's always something to talk/gossip/chit chat here. For those with formal questions please direct them to FB for their replies. Over here it's good for TCSS & we may learn something new each day from each other especially from the blogger.
ReplyDeleteBlogger is right. We got the worse MA team one can dream of. We thought we got them cheap as we need not pay anything if the 80% was not achieved. Now the MA will be laughing to the bank as this is an easy job for them. Any problems, just keep quiet. If cornered, just blame the buyer or the approving authorities for the lack of news. However I am certain that this will be the last enbloc job for the company. Their individual sellers market will also be affected. We will have the last laugh.
ReplyDeleteActually I don't consider anything shared here as rumours or speculations. they are just opinions and each has his or her own choice to share or believe in any of them.
ReplyDeleteThat fb page... So many words but says so little. Appalling.
ReplyDeleteOne whole week to craft a statement: " No updates based on rumors and speculation" What a beauty! Always thought official updates is to quell rumors and dispel speculation.
DeleteMany now regretting demanding for answers; even more confused by official clarification that's clear as mud.
Seems like many of our residents have now gone into fb to ask which is which in terms of timelines. Is it 3 months or is it 6 months? I suspect there will, once again be silence.
ReplyDeleteSome propose that we leave this enbloc in the capable hands of CSC or MA and Lawyers. I would, but from the start they dont seem to have our interest at heart and dispensing confusing and contradicting info as a team. Case in point, different interpretation on date of legal completion between Eldan/Huttons and CSC. SP's query: 'Wonder which timeline correct?' still unanswered.
ReplyDeleteCSC unaccommodating and dismissive of SPs request for timelines; redirecting to S&P knowing full well that it only mentions deadlines. Inquiries by concerned SP to contact Sim Lian themselves goes unanswered. Is our SC embarrassed? Well they should be!
But I'm more concerned about LUP, particularly possible deductions from our proceeds. I have no doubt this sale will go through at a time and terms of buyer's choosing. It has to. Professional services already rendered have to be paid, if deal falls through it would be a nightmare scenario for Chairman. This lot lacks synergy, each looks after their own interests and our poorly advised CSC have few and only bad options. Purchaser Wins!
Hope I'm wrong.
I agree that LUP is impt. We already sell so cheap. Any deduction will further reduced our sales proceed. On top of this we have to pay higher price for replacement home because of the delay. If there are any rumours, CSC should come out and clarify or squash it. Been evasive or maintain silence will only further escalate speculations and rumours.
DeleteWhy I'm very troubled. In 2011, public outcry over Sim Lian overcharging by over $100k for 5 room units at DBSS "Centrale 8" in Tampines. 2015, Minister Heng SK had to intervene in Centrale 8 homeowners complaints of poor workmanship against developer.
DeleteOur boy scouts were matchmake by Huttons with an old hand who plays hardball We've been truly had. What if we're asked to take a $100k haircut? Eldan better enlighten us of our options NOW if we're asked for contributions. Is Chairman authorised to decide on our behalf? Must all SPs vote for it? Minister cannot intervene and defend against badly negotiated albeit legit contract. Patiently waiting until SL reveals her cards is not a good option. Hope for the best, but PREPARE for the WORST.
MA and Eldan have legal duties to update SPs and provide their view of progress. Is their view or guidance also speculation? They can't do some homework and properly guide SPs on progress? They can't even properly give us a time table - flip flop 3 mths after Sales Order, now saying 3 mths after all approvals. Is this negligence? Easy to fool SPs because 560 owners easier to deal with?
ReplyDeleteI suggest all 560 of SPs have to start talking to SL directly for update. We want to know from SL what their issues are, if any, as the ball is on their court.
This is the most basic requirement when we sell our units to a buyer, we will ask what the status is from buyer, after we as seller fulfilled our requirements. The Sale Order is Issued (we never even seen it, is it also speculation from Huttons?)
As it stands right now, Huttons and Eldan have not fulfilled their duties to SPs as our agents to update us appropriately.
Today is 11 January. Sale notice on 3 January.
ZERO INFORMATION SO FAR. WAIT FOR THE SKY TO FALL.
Can't really blame the SC as their info are based on SL feedback but at least the MA should come out and communicate with the SPs even though they have no answers. Wouldn't any seller get angry if he appoint an exclusive agent and the agent just remain silent & refused to communicate with him after given him exclusivity? Even no answer must always keep in touch with their customers to build rapport for future business and referrals. This is basic business courtesy.
ReplyDeleteChairman, CSC is at the top of totem pole. MA's interaction with SPs is with Chairman's blessings only. Chairman has the authority, vested by us, homeowners of Tampines Court, to instruct MA and Eldan to act within the purview of this collective sale. If it seems they're all rollin over and playin dead, one must assume that's what they're told to do. CSC coould of course be upfront with us and enlighten us of any intransigent advisors in our midst. After all, we're paying them helluva lot to do and say nothing. Hell, I'll do it for half the commission!
DeletePlse remember that despite the better judgement of this TC community, our Chairman, CSC decided to recall this mediocre MA after his resignation on Nov 16. Team Huttons is CSC's preferred choice. They got what they asked for.
DeleteLive with it ! Stop whining ! Solve this problem of your making. For all our sakes.
No worries if you wanna stay in TC, register and wait.
ReplyDeletehttp://propertylaunch-invest.com/property/tampines-court-en-bloc.html
MA can still do damage control to their reputation by organising an FAQ session at the Bishan office. We are not that for your buffet but to get answers. You are our appointed agent. Building rapport and relationship with your customers is impt to your future business.
ReplyDeleteHow come SL is taking so long. It only makes sense that they have applied for approval concurrently already, not wait till after sales order. Now the main issue is no updates from developer which is basically a black box. Has anyone managed to talk to MA/ lawyers and got any updates?
ReplyDeleteat Anonymous 9: not the point of contention here.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, I read and re-read the SC's comments on facebook and these jokers must have a PHD in "Speaking in Riddles and The Art of Deflecting", either that or my command of English is so terok that I could not make out what they were trying to say. I must say, I am almost relived to see that other people also do not seem to understand them. "3 months from when?" is now the million dollar question.
What really really got on my nerves, was the tonality of the replies, the flippant ownself go and check your S&P notice and this page is only used to update blah blah blah. Eh, Dei, when you wanted all of us to sign, you knock on our doors and your voice on FB very loud, now when we have genuine questions and concerns, you go MIA for a week and then come back with a non-answer that has now confused everyone else further. If you don't want to address individual concerns online or reply to emails then hold a proper meeting or platform for everyone to allay concerns.
dont worry. when the time comes to collect their fees, wah say, ma and legal will send their invoice by first class DHL into your hands and deduct it from your bank ac faster than you can say "youre fired". they will also come up with a long speculative list of things they have "achieved".
DeleteLanguage imprecise bcos mind is muddled.
DeleteWe sent these boys into the arena with Big Boy Sim Lian.
Keeps me awake all night. We have blood on our hands.
Dear blogger,i wander why SPs still hope for cheque three months from SALE ORDER,when they receive LAWYER LETTER few days ago .
ReplyDeleteI QUOTE from MA/SC FB.
【 5 days ago,FB
the letter said...pending on government (outline planning permission)baseline comfimation, SLA top-up consent, estimated lease top up premium... 】
SP are too naive too expect get all URA and LTA 【TIA and pre application flexbililty study
】applications approved in few months.
SP should draw a flow chart,then they have a better picture.
It's because that info contradicts with what we were all told at general briefing at Huttons, Aug 17. Team credibility in question.
DeleteWe want firm timelines, as other Enbloc are able to provide at this juncture, to make plans for major life change events resulting from this. That expensive, cold legal missive does nothing to allay our concerns.
CSC perceived as sitting fat, dumb and happy; basking in the recent success of STB Sale Order. Other Enbloc, when confronted with problems, the team worked together resolve issues and provided official updates and revised timelines. They understood the enormity of this undertaking to be left to individual SPs and it's a major life event for households. Being Professionals, they will NOT shirk from their responsibilities nor tarnish the image of their firm.
I don't think the SPs expect cheque 3 months from sales order. What we want are answers. Just answer the questions posted by blogger on the FB for a start.
DeleteYes, I want cheque 3 months from sales order as presented by Huttons. How to account for interest lost of 1.7m and price increase of replacement unit ?
DeleteAfter the big post "We have gotten the Sales Order!" now quiet as a mouse.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of the comic Junior lawyer who shouted "are u ready to open the box? " at bishan a few mths ago.
its just amusing how our agents work lah. i remember they asked us to sign confidentiality agreements at bishan, then they said the tender info is too confidential to disclose to us. then the next thing was our friend had spoken to BT and ST and out in the press the next day with all details in full glory. very confidential indeed.
this is what we pay $12m for. we are cheapstake, should have paid $20m maybe...else we get info only if public has it first.
Blogger, Why do they delete your questions at FB? It is something which everyone wants to know the answers. It is the duty of the MA to find out the answers for us since we are paying them commission to be our agent just like when we sell our units individually.
ReplyDelete
Deletethey just dont like Bloggers questions especially when they are still patting themselves so hard for a great job they did...they dont want to hear anything else.
i bet if there is a meeting, first thing they will say is how amazing work they did on sales order....
pressure is building on the sleeping csc and ma. suggest everyone keep up posting on FB to wake them up to give us answers.
ReplyDeletehahaha how long before you think they reply to everyone's queries? if at all.
ReplyDeleteI doubt they will reply this week. Tomorrow is last day of work day and then the weekends. Office close.... wait till Monday then. ðŸ¤
Deletehttp://www.todayonline.com/singapore/heng-lead-task-force-probing-residents-complaints-centrale-8
ReplyDeletehttp://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/housing/gripes-over-finishes-fittings-in-dbss-flats-at-centrale-8
boy scouts paid $10++m by SPs just get steamrolled by commando ranger SL. whimpering in the hole don't know what to do now. this bunch we hired would get lost in bt nature reserve. making SPs look bad.
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned LTA APPROVAL is hold up in the chain of events. Probably that the reason maybe we should just wait up a week see they can come back with good news. I think getting government area for answer is not easy.
ReplyDeleteThe million dollar question is when was the application actually made? The 2nd question is ; why CSC or MA refused to answer blogger's question at FB ?
ReplyDeleteSo the LTA is the problem? Shouldn't SL have applied for LTA and URA at same time, or is they have to wait after LTA approve then can get OPP approval?
ReplyDeleteI am just speculating, like the rest of you. They have to get the LTA approval before OPP application. (see PAFS circular in new post) if they didn't get provisional approval before the 13th Nov.
DeleteThere could be other reasons for the delay ..... we just don't know
How long does the LTA approval take? SL can't be so inefficient to take their own sweet time to apply, they are running a business, delays will affect their margins
ReplyDeleteI wonder what they did between 22 Aug (S&P Date) and 13 Nov (new LTA rule) apart from applying for the Lessor Approval (which is a given since it is Sim Lian after all). LTA approval is not required for en-bloc redevelopment proposals that have already been granted Outline Planning Permission, Provisional Permission before 13 November 2017.
DeleteYes i wonder too. Seems like OPP was not even applied before 13 Nov. Could be in anticipation for LTA rule? And saw your question on FB on when LTA application was made, hopefully can get an answer soon so we have a clearer picture when LTA approval can be obtained and then next step OPP
DeleteSL seems to be very cautious at cost control as they don't want to waste a penny before sales order granted. I have a feeling that they regret buying TC, otherwise why they behave so draggy and reluctant??
ReplyDeleteOPP costs 200,000.outline planning permission.
DeleteOPP is optional.
Fee cannot be off set DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION below.
DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION costs double of OPP.ie 400,000.
https://www.ura.gov.sg/edaxfWeb/fee/feecalc2016/calcFeeFormField.jsp
regarding SL covering his pockets.due to silent mode SL adopting, i have same feeling.
Deletemay be SL waits for SALE or COURT orders then staring applying,especially OPP,DA above.
but can SL apply baseline which costs few thousands..
i feel very bad to guess a 960 mil bidder so concern of half a million.
yes maybe next mth, our sc and friends will stop patting themselves so hard they hear our complains.
ReplyDeletethen they will arrange a meeting 2 mths later and tell us to keep quiet until then.
we have to get them to arrange a sp meeting this weekend, or even today!
used to avoid saying anything bad about them but i have no choice but agree with blogger that this is a bunch of clowns. but we arent here to watch a circus, not with OUR property hanging on in no mans land like this...irresponsible. will boycott Huttons for any future property deal.
The name Tampines Court or TC means Tann Coocoo?So just be patient and wait till the cows come home.
ReplyDeleteWe started in 2015, if they are fast and good, we would have gone enbloc & collected the money long time ago ! So now continue to wait tam coocoo lor
DeleteQuite scary scenario and if approval not given, SL can just back off in my opinion.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.businesstimes.com.sg/real-estate/en-bloc-sales-may-run-into-new-road-block
re 27,Rio Casa and Serangoon Ville was sold in late May and late July 2017 respectively. Both got all permissions before 13 Nov 2017 LTA PAFS!
ReplyDeleteIn 4 to 6 months only.
I think both sites also require Traffic Impact assessment ,though
it was done during development control stage.
DP and LUP are required in Serangoon Ville .Why so fast?
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/real-estate/oxley-led-consortium-acquires-serangoon-ville-for-s499m-in-collective-sale
busybody
So be it and back off. We are not beggars. It is a willing sellers and buyer process.The loser are legal team and Hutton.
ReplyDeletere TC blur CSA.
ReplyDeleteSPs of Euroasia Apartment have received draft CSA during signatures collecting stage.So,ALL SP know what do they authorize their CS to do and % of money receivable.
This make sense and fair.Lawyer is Lee and Lee,who also acts for FR SPs.
three weeks ago,CSC,MA said.
ReplyDeleteThe applications by both parties(developer and ourselves )was started upon S&P. END.
Who did pay the cost for application?
SP or MA?
and who will bear the cost if deal successful or fails?
which application ?