Jan 2, 2018

Party Pooper

Folks - don't celebrate just yet because we are not in possession of all the facts. There is still the open issue of the LUP (Lease upgrading premium) and the cap of $115m that Sim Lian imposed.

What if the cap has been breached and we have not been told about it?  If the LUP is greater  than $115m then who pays the difference?

I do not trust this Team one inch, there are many ways to skin a cat and maybe this is one way to claw back $50k from each and every one of us. I protest for the following reasons.
  1. There has to be some certainty in a collective sale, when an S&P is signed a sales price is AGREED and owners know what they are getting. Their Sales Proceeds are calculated using an agreed method of distribution and the amount is there is black & white in your bundle of documents. 
  2. There is a reason why the S&P did not specifically spell out what would happen if the ceiling was breached; to do so would have inserted uncertainty and that could have sunk the sale through bad faith in the matter of sale price and method of distribution. 
  3. It is my humble opinion that the CSC has no power to reduce the sale proceeds of owners at this stage by any amount (bar payment for extra legal fees).  There is no provision in the CSA that allows them to dip into people's pockets without their express permission. If there is such a clause, I would like to know why it was not explained to owners. 
  4. The RP may have been set with an eye on the DP (how do we really know, we were never shown the RLV) but the Owners are under no obligation to pay the DP. It does not factor into the costs & expenses of the collective sale. 
  5. Tampines Court was sold for $970m - which is just $10m above the reserve price. According to the CSA, the CSC cannot sell the estate for less than the RP without first seeking owner approval - doing so only after the sales order is tantamount to circumventing the rules and duping the owners.
How  then to bridge the difference, if there is one, without robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Possible Solutions:
  1. The MA should shoulder the difference since they are the ones advising the CSC and assured  us all that this LUP was conservative and safe.  If the LUP is, say $145m, then they have gotten their math horribly wrong and should pay the penalty.
  2. The Buyer can choose to pay up or let the deal die. The DP is the Buyers business after all, and not the Sellers. So, they should like it or lump it in my opinion.
  3. The CSC can ask for voluntary donations from willing owners. 
  4. A mix of all the above
I may be stirring up a storm here, but this matter ought to be known by now and we should know if we are getting the exact sales proceeds stated in TAB 6 of the Bundle of documents. This was done by the Valuers on 30 Aug 2017 based on a sales price of $970m excluding DP for site intensification and lease top-up. The method of distribution has been set, the sales proceeds worked out and we should all be safe in our beds knowing that what is written is what we will get.

I am throwing the ball (or bomb) into the ring; it's the final unresolved issue that can sour the sale in owners mouths,  
What is the DP? 
Are we getting our published sales proceeds as promised ?

* I have asked the question (Jan 3rd) on FB - lets see what the answer will be.
Question 2 days days posted- still no reply
Question reposted today (5th Jan)

82 comments:

  1. You're not stirring a storm. All SPs are together now, and we need to be assured 100%+1% and no more uncertainties for SPs. Especially not with anything that can be disclosed but is not disclosed.

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  2. While SC willing to address timelines and SSD and rightly so, they seem coy on the all important LUP. Rio Casa SPs already know they will receive in full, NO deduction taken for incr in DP.
    It is imperative that SC too provide updates/answers to us on this all important issue.
    What is the quantum of TCs LUP?
    If it's >115M what are the chances of SL opting out?
    Are we all expected to take a haircut?

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  3. The blogger owner & the objectors should donate the difference since they are so rich. Lol

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    Replies
    1. Rich/Poor has no bearing on this matter.
      It is incumbent on those who negotiated a billion dollar contract exercise due diligence. Should there be any penalty payment, then only those culpable should be penalised.

      Delete
    2. @3.0 Your remark is as useful as the L in salmon.

      Delete
  4. Agree! So far, MA is keeping very quiet on LUP. Maybe wait for objectors to withdraw, then drop us a bomb since there r no objector to stop the deal? MA is working for us or Developer?

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    Replies
    1. The bomb hasn't been dropped - it is just hypothetical. We are still in the dark.

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  5. Why some SPs prefer to get 3rd party info from the blog ? Many things can be enquire from more reliable sources or govt agencies. Don't be lazy & just rely on 3rd parties info. Read the blogger 's disclaimer clause. Any bad decision you make based on the info you have only yourself to blame. She will just wash hands.

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    Replies
    1. Topic is about LUP, and the official sources are CSC, MA and lawyers who negotiated with Sim Lian. Govt agencies cannot address our concerns. Official TC Facebook evasive on this crucial issue.
      Blogger's hands are clean, intellect sharp and conscience clear. What about our officials? Please tell us more guys.

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    2. Don't be silly. The team will be more happy if you ask questions here instead of the official FB. Later can say you never ask what? Why are we paying them so much & still have to source out own information else where.

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    3. At least we asked at official FB if they don't reply we have record of questions to them. Maybe they should hold a session at Hutton office to address all the questions & concern?

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  6. Before the bombs explode,there are landmines along the way....the clue is about the "Conditional Sale" it is still unclear.

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  7. While it is good to be cautiously optimistic, i think blogger u are more kiasi and kiasu than our average Singaporean...been living in Singapore for far too long?..haha. SL does not get to where it is today by focusing on the small thing and missing out on the big picture. They got TC at one of the best price possible and the project will create a lot of positive economic ripple throughout the SL group over the next few years. Plus now with no time wasting in the high courts, TC has become a better proposition,..they have more time to build and sell,..and the huge profit they stand to make at the end..i guesstimate for the whole group with the economic multiplier in play, easily upwards of 500m,..they must be super daft to give this up. rather than deal with hypotheticals and send unnecessary shockwaves to senior citizens' hearts in tc, would suggest go take a walk around the compound,..another few months, its bye bye liao. cheers. tcpatriot.

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    Replies
    1. Indeed SL recognises what a great deal TC is to them and will not derail it because of LUP. I bet they are tough negotiators, familiar with mega deals. They can smell an amateurish, confused opposite number with divergent interests. SL is not a charitable organisation; don't claim to be. They did not get to where they are now by being Goody Two shoes.
      Question now is will all SPs of TC, you incl, be penalised for a badly negotiated deal.
      CSC reluctance to shed light on this deal does not bode well for us all, especially the old, medically, financially challenged of which there are many that our CSC cares so much about.

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    2. Thank you for sharin the SL big picture, deep pocket perspective. CSC should however be mindful of the many ageing SPs with financial and medical issues where even a $5K reduction in promised proceeds is significant. That's only right. That's only fair to the less fortunate in our TC community.

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  8. Should not be too long before we get more ( I use the word “ more” very loosely in this context) information. The sales order has been issued which means the units that has to pay SSD will have about 14 days to do so. No point in paying the SSD if the sale does not happen. In the event that the LUP/DP is too high and we are expected to fork out the difference , then there will be financial loss for some units and the sale is moot.

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  9. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    Replies
    1. Busybody, I understand you are very involved in the calculations, but they are too long to post in comments. Sorry.
      Keep your comments to a reasonable length :)

      Delete
  10. WHY SL use 115m as back door key?
    their learned staff should know that LUP is well above 115m.
    hope SP need not get hair cut..

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  11. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  12. OMG, is the blogger going to post another 100 pages of "facts" by this guy? He actually thinks that people are going to read it. The only person who is reading it...is...himself, and maybe his pet dog.

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  13. Patience is the key to success.

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  14. Aiyoh, so many questions. Relax lah. Just only 1 day after obtaining sales order all so kancheong. Later kena stroke cannot enjoy yr money how?. Just flood the FB with your questions and maybe they will call a meeting to address the queries. I don't think they will come here to read lah. So kpkb so much also no use lah.

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  15. Not LUP related but useful infomation nonetheless:
    Normanton Park received Sale Order today (3 Jan 18). SPs duly informed via Email same day, pertinent info such as Completion and Vacant Possession date, SSD, instructions on Title Deeds, general advice on acquisition of replacement property and update on progress payment by purchaser.
    Now that's efficiency and keeping SPs updated so owners can make informed decisions. Gold Standard service that's worth every penny of their commission.

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    Replies
    1. Impressive.... we can only dream of such efficiency and professionalism..

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    2. Can't compare TC with SAF ex-regulars.

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    3. Agree, the ex-regulars make huge profits as they bought their unit dirt cheap. TC more weird people and many units change hands so profit lesser. So people not happy & purposely delay lor

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    4. 15.3- Not true. There have been 378 resales in Normanton Park since 1995 (no public record of sales pre-1995). There are 488 units in total. So there has been a huge turnover of owners since they were built in the mid 1970's.

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    5. NP had good people serving in the CSC, in particular, it's Chairman. Very hands-on, does his groundwork and did not leave the endeavour on autopilot at the mercy of paid professional advisers. Kept SPs abreast of discussion with potential buyers in their failed first attempt. Residents trusted him implicitly, voted his team in a second time, got 80% in quick time and the rest is history.
      Chairman set the tone and high standards that is evident in the efficiency and professionalism of their Legal team.
      Of course, in any collective sale there are rumblings; some SPs wished for more. However, none questioned the competence, integrity, openness or dedication of the CSC working in their best interests.
      Not rocket science really. Good leadership matters.

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    6. Compare and Contrast: Normanton Park SPs received letter detailing transfer of documents- signing sessions.

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  16. Little delay u all kpkb. Objectors delayed us for few months you all never make noise. Wonder why huh ?

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    Replies
    1. Actually A LOT of noise was made when we had objectors who wasted time ( ok, alright, it was their legal right) BUT that is now yesterday’s news as that bridge has been crossed. In today’s news , there are no more objectors for us to curse and swear at or point the sharpened pitch forks at. What we do have now, is a team of sales and marketing agents that have been busy deleting things on FB but has not had the decent common courtesy to answer our questions about estimate deadlines. In fact , they have gone completely silent. Silence is the loudest noise people, you think this crowd was angry with the 3 objectors? I would not want to be on the receiving end of this mob if questions are still ignored and go unanswered. No more objectors for you to blame, everyone of us are expecting you guys to be switched on and on the ball.

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  17. re 15.Any cancellation clause in NP?ha ha
    All professionals should serve clients in this way.

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  18. re 16。
    objectors are not delaying the deal.
    this is the price sg people pay for protection of en blok minority.

    2.en blok procedure is very clear cut,except uncertainty of the cancellation clause.
    if no cancellation clause ,the only way After sale order issued is completion of sale. like we see NP SP get the e mails of the same day of Sale order.

    3.may be some key men or women involved still on holiday!
    BUT before holiday,key men can give their instruction and prepare letters to SP for.completion of sale,content like Normantion Park as.shown in above.

    After SALE order given,if there is no unexpected event,the key men can just give their.command.from anywhere in the world.Then all SP can get yhe clear picture within 12 hours from issue of SALE order..

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    Replies
    1. Agree, Objectors not causing additional delays as approval from authorities ie URA, LTA etc done CONCURRENTLY by developers. SC reply on their FB 28 Nov. Is this where the problem lies? We need updates from CSC. The clock is ticking.

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    2. u must be very free, not a SP yet talk so much and spend so much time on other people's business. TC SP must be very thankful to you.

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  19. Maybe NP paid their MA and legal more than TC for the extra express service. Nowadays $10m can’t buy much I guess.

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    Replies
    1. It is their job and obligations to SPs to give their most efficient service to close the process asap so we can all can move on with our life. TC enbloc started since 2015. Haven't we waited long enough ?

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  20. Going by your logic then What is $1.7 million? Peanuts?

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  21. if no confidential clause in CSA,can share what are exact wordings of LUP ceiling clause?
    2
    there are two parts0pf LUP,first existing PR 1.5558,LUP is est to be
    89 mil【this is good news,if CSA mean ceiling of LUP this figure】.$7800 psm,is the current market vvalue on 99 years lease,.then use /0.96x 0.86.

    another part is DC of 2.80 less 1.558.
    can anyone share with us? use DC table?

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  22. Ok seriously, what’s taking them so long to give us updates on timelines? Many of us want to know if we should start looking for homes or not.

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  23. I wonder why u all so kan cheong...i thought they already say they have to write to developer lawyer to inform them about the sales order and they would have to wait for the developer lawyer to come back before they can firm up the timelines...the ball is now in SL court, whether they still want the deal to go through. I will celebrate if the deal goes through...as it would mean becoming a millionaire soon,..i will also celebrate if SL backs out...it would mean there is the prospect of enbloc 4, another team running the show..hopefully more competent,..but definitely chance for higher proceeds down the road,..i.e. richer millionaire later. do not listen to sourgrapes who tell u your unit is now worthless if SL rescinds on the contract, there will be vultures waiting at the sideline to makan up your tc unit and preying on daft owners who are letting go at below 1 mil. i reckon resale prices should start at around 1.3m if enbloc 3 goes dead. regardless of what naysayers, sourgrapes etc tells u..before u sell your tc unit, do be aware there is a chance of 2mil down the road. Since the only clause for SL to rescind is the 115mil LUP, if it crosses that, it would mean even the chief valuer thinks the land tc sits on its worth loads more...Our
    position is most enviable,..regardless of whether SL wants us or not...so chill. tcpatriot.

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    Replies
    1. Love your superbly positive thinking! Without dreams reality will not come through! Think bigger so that round 6 may even happen and you’ll be billionaire! And can we have “Itshome to me Aunty Choo” to champion the SC then? I’ll sure sign with all your esteemed knowledge and predictions!😘😘😘

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    2. Dear Sir, I guess we at the TC Group of ordinary people are anguished by the lack of information and guidance to plan our next moves. Nothing definitive to tell our banks for our mortgage arrangements. Many are unsure if they'll get the full proceeds to commit to a new house. There are rumours that a huge chunk will be docked off to further ripple thru SL Group already bloated $500 million profit that you forecast ( None at TC dares question your financial analytics ) Furthermore, what if this Enbloc fails? Two homes that we cannot afford, and the IRAS will slap us with ABSD. While we wait patiently for the Enbloc 4 $2 mil our homes will be auctioned off.
      Relax, don't kancheong you say there's a plan B. Sit and wait for CSC enlighten us at a time of their choosing, whenever that may be, only then make an informed decision. Well, with the day of vacant possession fast approaching, agents can sense our desperation and kancheongness and we may well overpay for a house of horrors because its the only one available for immediate occupation. Rent lah! You are aware that moving house is not as easy as changing underwear?
      Then there's the SSD dilemma. Beg, borrow or steal to pay now. Enbloc fail how? Then wait lah. And pay late penalty?
      There's also the renovation contractor if we have the time. If no time, live with it and get used to wife daily complaints. Can go mad you know, Sir. What about pet dog, cat, snake may not be allowed in new HDB/Condo/Ghetto. Easy what, put to sleep. And the kids will....nevermind. Transport arrangement for school or maybe change school better. What about poor Dad? So comfortable with doctor at St 11. Now how?
      While Sir is chilling, sipping iced tea by the swimming pool of your new fully paid up condo, please spare a thought for your former neighbours that you love so dearly. After all that's whats meant by the word PATRIOT.

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    3. anonymous 23.2- Dear sir, you are not the only one with problems. Yet many others take it in their stride instead of trying to play the pity card. Please do not act as if others owe you a living.

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    4. Interesting letter. Did you actually write to them ? How abt post it in FB and let them understand our anguish of never ending waiting and deadly silent response from them ?

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    5. Dear 23.3 My intent is to highlight the real problems and stresses on our TC community caused by uncertainty and lack of updates from our CSC. To redirect the attention to bread and butter issues that we'll soon face as opposed to speculating on the long term, big picture, privileged perspective of tcpatriot.
      The sympathy card is deftly played by others on TC FB against objectors. Not me.
      Many are frustrated, suffering in silence. Many have even registered their dissatisfaction officially to no avail. An official progress update NOW would be most welcome to ALL in TC.

      Delete
    6. CSC does not owe us a living. True. They however are obligated to answer SPs legitimate questions and keep us all updated.

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    7. Anonymous 23.5- fair enough. I too agree that updates on the progress are most welcome. Its just that the way you put your message across made it seem to me like you were playing the sympathy card as well. Nonetheless, if i have misunderstood you, i apologize.

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    8. Anonymous 23.6- Yes yes I agree. I was not trying to defend the CSC for failing to fulfill their obligations.

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  24. Just received sales order letter. Don't know have to delay how long again to fulfil paragraph 5.

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  25. Something from Eldan in the post today.

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  26. How long does it take to get approval from all those govt agencies? How come NP already get the timeline when they received the sales order 1 day after us ?

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  27. Blogger, your prediction : "The Completion Date* sometime before 2 April 2018 " still stand ?

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    Replies
    1. I haven't received the Lawyers letter yet (the one one people got yesterday) so I don't know what it says. My prediction is for a regular course - the optimistic prediction I should call it. Things aren't looking good now, I must say

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    2. Believe it takes time for all mails to be delivered. I got mine.

      Just have to be patient. As we waited for the objectors to exercised their rights and waited, we have allow time for the process to run its course as well

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    3. Letter concerns SSD only.

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  28. Talk is cheap getting thing done is not easy, there are lot of tweak for submission plan to get approved. Is the developer job to get things done, we came a long way so good things have to wait.

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    Replies
    1. But they did announce that approval will be done concurrently as mediation. It has been at least 3 months. At least keep us update. How many of the application has been approved and how much time is needed pending approval of the rest. You cannot keep the SPs in suspense who has been waiting patiently all this while. We are really in the dark right now.

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    2. Well they are not doing themselves any favours by keeping quiet and not updating us. As it is, there’s a lot of watercooler/ market talk that the LUP is about 140million. The silence sends a lot of unintended messages.

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    3. So, the holdup is in the Developer's planning approval. Thanks. Phew, What a relieve ! Many residents are quite stressed that we may have to take massive deduction to our proceeds.
      It's not too difficult, no, make that absolutely irresponsible to NOT answer SPs queries on their official FB. It's only civil and decent to officially provide regular updates and answer SPs legitimate concerns promptly.
      Commission not cheap either.

      Delete
  29. Let's refresh and read towards end if link below:http://www.asiabuilders.com.sg/news/155085/sim-lian-plans-over-2-000-units-at-tampines-site

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  30. anonymous 28- Making excuses like you are is even cheaper.

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  31. MA,CSC,should hv some info to share.following shows why.
    i quote from URA pdf file. sorry cannot
    give link here.
    u search wordings then can get this fike. NOT SURE if update info..

    QUOTE URA.
    Steps to apply to SLA to pay Differential Premium (DP) and be exempted from
    paying Development Charge (DC).

    Step 1: Submission of Development .

    Step 5: SLA issues an offer to the applicant to pay DP .

    SLA typically issues an offer to the applicant within 8 weeks*
    to pay DP.

    Step 6: Applicant accepts offer and pays DP .

    The applicant will be given 6 weeks*
    to accept SLA’s offer and to pay DP. In the
    meantime, he/she may make a PP resubmission to URA (accompanied by SLA’s
    letter of offe

    * These are indicative timeframes..END

    URA should give date n file ref in file attachment.

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  32. Last week i happens to see about 10+people looking around and discussing outside tampines court surroundings and roadside. Maybe they are LTA engineers.

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  33. I can see more people is putting pressure on CSC by demanding some answers from them at FB site. Way to go guys ! We cannot accept delay after delay. We can be patient but has our limits. CSC has the obligations to give us regular updates be it positive or negative. This blog is good for chit chat but official questions & answer should be at FB.

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  34. Tampines MP Desmond is doing house visits on 9 jan. Ask him get relevant government departments to expedite the application approval.

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    Replies
    1. A very good suggestion!

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    2. Yes, Yes Yesss. A rare golden opportunity for us all. He must be thoroughly briefed with details, know where the problem areas are to direct relevant gov agencies into action. Us residents kept in the dark raising this with MP Desmond will be ineffective and come across as nuisance complain king. A chance now for CSC, managing this sale from the beginning, to speak and act for us.

      Delete
  35. dunt sue me。i must say SL is very brave.to pull all eggs into one site.
    u walk around,u can see.many sites with few hundred units are JV,joint venture.

    even local big shots capital land,FnN,etc,partner with japanese co.


    https://data.gov.sg/dataset/vacant-sites-sold-by-ura

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  36. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  37. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  38. MA deleting FB is bad omen.

    who will delete FB?
    DUMped by frens,ie depressed.
    or want to cover some past history..

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  39. oh DO NOT BLAME MA,SP lawyer for not provide info on LUP,DP,LTA impact assessment etc.

    becos SL,or his lawyer or professionals (valuer,traffic expert etc)to talk with agencies.unless stipulated in CSA to update SP,nothing MA,SP lawyer can do.

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  40. Replies
    1. confident that most enbloc sales have been successful so far am wondering what is the current TC deadlock, roadblock?

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  41. 'LUP is estimated to be 151 million, much higher than 115 mil in the back out clause.Open market value(assumed DP and LUP paid) is 1370 million.

    Comment by Busybody'

    (the rest of the calculation can be found on my 'busybody' page, since he works so hard at it, I feel bad always deleting his incredibly long explanations. Who knows, he may be the only one who got it right in the end. )

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  42. Presume we were at high court because of objections that will be a longer wait from 6 months to a year. Few weeks is better than months.

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  43. Its ridiculous to have the LUP at 151mil. do u even know how to calculate? it would mean a psfppr of close to $700! the latest land in tampines was sold at around $560psfppr,...earlier i calculated the LUP would be close to 115m,..it might overshoot but it should not go beyond 125m,..are u sure busybody is a 'HE'?...i dont know what is busybody trying to do but so far the posts have all been substandard. just a bunch of cut and paste,..looks more like a sourgrape to me...real busybody. i think best is to wait for the official numbers,..no point guessing here and creating unnecessary panic among the old folks in tc. end of the day, if SL abandons us, its not the end of the world, one can look forward to enbloc 4...trust me, enbloc 4 will take half the time compared to enbloc 3...

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  44. re 43. Kindly show your calculation with supporting information.

    Kindly do not pick figures from the air.

    busybody

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